Best strings for trad jazz comping?

**banana** · 09-08-2015, 10:30 AM

I'm pretty much strictly a rhythm player, and play trad jazz on my Loar LH-700 archtop. I've been using Martin SP phosphor bronze strings (mediums), and while they sound good enough, the quality is terrible. The winding on the G string breaks over most of the frets within a few minutes of playing, and I'm lucky if I get through a set without breaking a string. I've gone through 4 G strings in as many days, so I've had it with Martins. I've tried D'Addarios as well and they are even worse.

Suggestions as to what strings I should try that can hold up to fairly aggressive comping and would have a good sound for trad jazz? I love the sound of phosphor bronze, but I need a better brand of strings, apparently.

**Greentone** · 09-08-2015, 11:15 AM

Try Thomastik-Infeld "Plectrum" Medium strings, .13-.61 gauge. TI strings all play as if they were somewhat lighter on the bass end than they measure out as, so don't worry about the .61 business.

Although _all_ string quality, across the board, seems to have dropped off a bit in my estimation--in recent years--TI works well, for me.

As an alternative to the acoustic set above, you might try the Thomastik-Infeld "Jazz Bebop" Medium set, .14-.55 set. Although they are nickel wound strings I find that they have plenty of punch for rhythm comping in my uses. Still, for my two fully acoustic archtop guitars I like the Plectrum set best.

**banana** · 09-08-2015, 11:29 AM

Thanks for the reply! Do you find that the TI strings are punchy enough for the style? Looking them up, they are described as sounding 'soft'.

**campusfive** · 09-08-2015, 03:22 PM

I've been happy with Martin SP 80/20's, but I've been checking out DR strings lately. However, I'm concerned you're having so many fret divots and so much string wear/breakage even when you switch to D'addarios. That tells me you've got some sharp frets or you're playing too hard or both. It's not like we're talking about Argentines here, because those are pretty fragile by comparison.

I'm obsessed with acoustic volume and projection, but there's a point where you're just throttling the guitar and it's not really singing. It's important to let the guitar do the work of amplifying itself, because anything more than that tends to cause the guitar to close up on itself.

I was leading a 10pc 20-30's small big band, that features my guitar playing and my beautiful National Tricone. Monitors were all over the place through out the nights, sometimes perfect, sometimes insufficient, and changing with out warning. I ended up playing way harder than normal, and I could see that kind of G string divoting. But, the same strings have been on that guitar for at least three months and hadn't had a problem until I was really hammering the guitar.

**Greentone** · 09-08-2015, 03:41 PM

campusfive brings up an important point...how does one produce volume out of a guitar? I find that with archtops, which are basically tuned drums--so to speak--one is best off "pushing the strings," as Roger (rpguitar) puts it. Hitting the strings, a common technique on the flattop guitar, doesn't yield optimal results on an archtop. However, when one pushes the strings down towards the floor, sweeping them away from the pick, one gets an immediate "crack" or "chunk" to the volume envelope, followed by a quick decay. This is sharply contrasted with the jangly, boingy attack/long decay that one experiences on, say, a Martin flattop. For archtop rhythm work it can be a very satisfying result. It also has great cutting power, due to the immediacy of the attack envelope. The experience is sort of THUMP...THUMP...THUMP...THUMP, rather than braAANNGGggg...braAANNGGggg...braAANNGGggg...braAA NNGGggg...with a flattop. (The flattop builds and decays more slowly. It is beautiful, but it isn't the penetrating drum shot of the archtop rhythm.) If you _push_ the strings with the pick, you don't end up sawing them off at the point at which you are fretting them. If you hit them, there is (IMO) more of a sawing action. This can cut the wrapping on wrapped strings.

Are TI strings "soft?" Actually, I think they are, now that you mention it. Only by trying a set...about $25 US...could you determine if they will be too soft, or just right for your purposes. They are all that I use now.

**Greentone** · 09-08-2015, 03:48 PM

I am afraid that I haven't articulated my point very well. What I am trying to say is that if you rest well above the strings and come down on them with the pick, you will use excessive force and saw the strings. If you rest the pick adjacent to the sixth, E string, and just push downward on the pick stroke, there is no excess force to activate the strings. Return to the rest position and use down strokes for picking rhythm, except where eighth and other accent notes are required. This gives immediate volume, quick decay, and no excess force on the strings.

I have more or less always done this with archtops, but I didn't conceptualize it until I watched rpguitar explain it on one of his clips. Roger is pretty thoughtful when it comes to getting good sound out of an archtop guitar.

IMO, archtop rhythm should sound like the great Freddie Green, i.e., like chordal drumming.

**banana** · 09-08-2015, 03:50 PM

Thanks! I believe I've tried Martin SP 80/20 and I don't recall having any particular issue with them-I'll try them again. I think the D'Addarios didn't have the winding break immediately over the frets (took them a month or so), but I didn't like the sound at all. I know several other guitar players who have had the same as I'm having with the Martin SP phosphor bronze, but I will definitely agree that I'm likely playing my guitar too hard. I play with horns and can't always hear myself very well, so I'm sure I play harder than I should.

What are the DR strings that you've been trying?

**banana** · 09-08-2015, 04:01 PM

Thanks, Greentone. I'll have to look and see what I'm doing- I *think* I'm doing what you say I should be doing (and I get a super chunky sound out of the guitar), but my string issues could certainly be caused by what I'm doing with my pick hand.

**campusfive** · 09-08-2015, 06:58 PM

I've been experimenting with the Rare, Sunbeams and Hi-Beams. Not enough to permanently switch, but I'm generally very anti-phosphor, but two of the DR's I've tried don't have the annoying sound I find with every other manufacturer. I'm not convinced yet, but I do enjoy the descriptions the DR Strings | The Handmade String - Guitar and Bass has for the purpose and use of their various acoustic strings - they have a goal behind the sound of each type of set.

**neatomic** · 09-08-2015, 08:35 PM

get an 80/20 bronze string rather than bronze phosphor..has more zinc..20%…brighter tone…also stick with hex core strings

cheers

**rpguitar** · 09-09-2015, 10:35 AM

+1 on the 80/20.

And definitely push the strings, don't hit them. I have not broken a string while actually playing in decades (only while tuning or installing, and they've always been old strings). It's hard for me to even imagine breaking a string playing rhythm on any acoustic guitar.

I use D'Addario or John Pearse 80/20, also La Bella Criterion Gold which are a "proprietary" alloy of the same general type.

**10course** · 09-11-2015, 12:46 AM

I play a Loar 600 with Martin 80/20 and have not broken any strings (not to be the contrarian). However, when I first got my Loar, the frets were shamefully rough! I had them worked on before using live, and it seems to be fine. So, here is what I use with great success: The Loar gets D'Addario 13-56 80/20s, and the Eastman 810 17" sounds best with Elixir 13-56 80/20s. I've tried everything except Thomastik.
My experience, though short compared to others here, is that phosphor bronze doesn't give a trad jazz or 20s/30s comping sound.....but that's on on my guitars and to my subjective taste.

**Klatu** · 09-11-2015, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by campusfive

I've been experimenting with the Rare, Sunbeams and Hi-Beams. Not enough to permanently switch, but I'm generally very anti-phosphor, but two of the DR's I've tried don't have the annoying sound I find with every other manufacturer. I'm not convinced yet, but I do enjoy the descriptions the DR Strings | The Handmade String - Guitar and Bass has for the purpose and use of their various acoustic strings - they have a goal behind the sound of each type of set.

This the first time I've read about someone being "anti" a particular kind of string. What about phosphor bronze so turns you off?

As for the 80/20s, I've read that while they start off brighter than their phosphor bronze equivalents, they quickly deaden and become darker than PBs. How accurate is this?

**banana** · 09-11-2015, 08:32 AM

Thanks, this is really helpful. I just put some 80/20s on last night... I can't remember why I stopped using them initially because I was definitely using them a while back. I'm guessing I forgot which ones I used, ended up with phosphor bronze and then thought that's what I was using before.

I truly do think that the strings I was having trouble with in my initial post are a bad batch, though. I pretty much *never* break strings but I've lost count of how many I've broken in the past 10 days (at least 8), all from the same type of string. When I was changing them last night and unwinding the string, one even broke! They are super brittle and I can snap them in my hands, which is weird and shouldn't happen. I am definitely looking at my technique, and my frets seem fine, but to go from strings always being fine to breaking every few minutes when the only thing that has changed is the strings seems to point to the strings.

**10course** · 09-11-2015, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Klatu

This the first time I've read about someone being "anti" a particular kind of string. What about phosphor bronze so turns you off?

As for the 80/20s, I've read that while they start off brighter than their phosphor bronze equivalents, they quickly deaden and become darker than PBs. How accurate is this?

I'm not trying to answer for campusfive, it is he that I ask for all archtop acoustic questions, but the reason I don't like phosphor bronze is because they turn my retro archtops into something that sounds like a bad 1970s folk guitar. ---Especially the larger Eastman. When my 80/20s get old, they just get undefined and thuddy, but still different in character than phosphor bronze.

**campusfive** · 09-11-2015, 08:15 PM

Phosphor always as an "artificial" "shrill" quality to it, to me. It's like a soda that too sweet and too sour at the same time.

**neatomic** · 09-11-2015, 09:16 PM

key is op's request for "trad jazz comping"...

& many vintage sets had a choice of wound B string!!! …forget about wound G

from d'addario-

"80/20 Bronze, commonly referred to as brass, is the original acoustic string alloy selected by John D'Addario Sr. and John D'Angelico in the 1930s. 80/20 Bronze strings are popular for recording due to their crisp, deep and projecting tone and appeal to many traditionalists and vintage enthusiasts for their historical significance. All D'Addario acoustic strings are wound on a hexagonally shaped, high carbon steel core, resulting in long lasting, bright sounding tone with excellent intonation."

cheers

**Klatu** · 09-11-2015, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

Phosphor always as an "artificial" "shrill" quality to it, to me. It's like a soda that too sweet and too sour at the same time.

Surprising to hear.

I'm a phosphor bronze guy, so sweet and sour actually sounds pretty good right about now. Time for some take out!

**DanTheMan** · 09-12-2015, 12:48 AM

Someone tried the Monel string on an acoustic archtop? Would it be good for comping or to mellow? I am asking because I have been told that the monel strings were developped before the invention of the magnetic pick-up.

Martin's Monel Strings ( https://www.martinguitar.com/acousti...283-retro.html )

I would not be surprised if they were used by Gibson in the early XX century.

What do you think? Good for comping?

Daniel

**campusfive** · 09-12-2015, 12:00 PM

I've written a bunch about monel being the "lost" missing link string that worked on both acoustic and electric before they started making specifically acoustic or electric strings.

On acoustic they are super midrange-y, and the response they bring out of each guitar is somewhat individual. I think they're fun to try, and I kept a set on my '32 De Luxe for a while, and they sounded great. But they lack a bit of the fullness of Bronze. On the gig, especially playing the kind of stuff the OP was talking about, you don't really miss that fullness, because you can only really hear mid-range punchiness. At home, by myself, I kind of miss it.

I should probably make a video of different strings on the same guitar.

**Klatu** · 09-12-2015, 12:42 PM

My experience with the current Gibson monel offerings wasn't very successful. I was expecting a string that worked equally well for both acoustic and electric applications, but the electric amplification didn't really work out. While the wound strings sounded a bit louder than their bronze counterparts, they weren't nearly as magnetic as my nickel strings.