Franz P90 vs Gibson P90

[Jazzman301]

I was curious if anyone knew if the Guild Franz dogear style P90 was the same size as the Gibson dog ear P90?

I have a 58 Guild CE100 with a single Franz P90 and would like to get a better pickup but want to know what fits in the stock route.

I want to keep the stock pickup so if I decided to sell it down the road there is still original parts to retain collectability.

Thanks cats.

'Moe

[neatomic]

and there are those that would argue that there is no better pup than an original 50's nyc built franz pup

(something akin to a west coast carvin ap-6)


simple yet elegant


do you by chance have an output resistance #??




cheers


ps.could always get a modern cordoba reissue wound to a (lower) p-90 ish 6.9k

https://shop.guildguitars.com/produc...-pickup-ivory/

[SamBooka]

Email Jason Lollar. He will be able to answer your question and I have a few of his P90 pickups at the best that I've heard so far.

[neatomic]

hope i didnt seem dismissive!!

the p-90 and franz have different bobbin sizes & mounting systems…don't believe a p90 would be a "no mod" fit

seymour duncan and curtis novak could both do an original size franz to your spec tho...

luck

cheers

[Hep To The Jive]

Franz P90 is better pickup!

[Franz 1997]

Franz pickups are not the same size as P90s, although not by much, and they typically read a lower dc resistance, around 6K.The Franz pickups I have had also had significantly stronger magnets than P90s, which was surprising since they were on a '50s guitar.

In terms of construction, they can be variable and I wouldn't call the construction 'better'.Key point is, they sound different to P90s; a little thinner and with more treble. Not better, different.

[Jazzman301]

I agree. Its a thinner, treble heavy almost microphonic sound to my ears. Great pickup if you are after that sound. I am not. I love the guitar just want a pickup that's better suited to the tone I am after.

I will NOT alter the original pickup. Its a 58 and it deserves to be left alone after all these years. But I have no problem taking it out and installing a pickup that's closer to the tone I am looking for.

The output if I recall was either 5.9 or 6.1 I can't remember which. But definitely lower than Gibson P90 pickups of that same era.

'Moe

[neatomic]

i don't think anyone suggested you alter the original pup..definitely please not!!!

but as the installation of a p90 will apparently require mods

your no mod solutions are-

a new cordoba franz wound to 6.9

or a seymour duncan or curtis novak version of a franz…(they make em)...which you could have built new by them, but to your spec

a p90 is nothin but 10,000 winds of #42..and bar alnicos

cheers

[Greentone]

I suggest that you stay with the Franz. It is widely regarded as the better pickup. People will go out of their way to hunt down Franz pickups for their guitars. They are sort of grail-like things.

50s Guild archtops with Franz pickups are tone-to-the-bone jazz guitars.

[Jazzman301]

While I respect the opinions here I have had this thing for almost a year and played it through my vintage Ampeg Reverberocket II, My Cube 80xl, My Yamaha G100 1x15, A polytone , a vintage Princeton Reverb(BF), Vintage Deluxe Reverb(BF), PRRI, DRRI and a Twin RI. I can certainly get an acceptable tone but not the tone I am after. Hence getting a darker less trebly/microphonic pickup than the stock Franz.

I'll call a few people. Kent Armstrong said he can't do it. So I'll call Jason Lollar, Pete Biltoft and Curtis Novak this week.

'Moe

[neatomic]

if you are willing to use your real franz cover…some of those guys might be more willing…tho id still be real surprised if lollar...

& dont discount s duncan…guy knows his stuff..and builds a franz pup already!..his custom shops a different thing than his guitar center pups

keep us posted

luck

cheers

ps- some of the guys at the guild forum have been known to pot their vintage franz pups to cut the microphonics…not that invasive to integrity of pup

[LaVinci]

Franz P90 is better pickup!

Yes
I agree
The franz in my '54 guild X-100 sounds fantastic.
Have you checked the tone circuit components to confirm their values...
It might not be the pickup,must the wiring or pots or caps...
Perhaps it is another part of your signal chain that is not working for you in your tone quest

[feral guitar]

slightly OT, but anyone know where I can get replacement Franz covers (new ones, not old stock)?
My "57 Guild has pretty yellow, cracked ones.
I have a 3 pickup guitar and each pickup cover is cut a little differently on the bottom to accommodate the curve of the top.

I attached some pics (pretty bad, sorry, best i can do)
two are of a Franz sideways so you can see the ends of the rough magnets underneath.
one is the bottom of the bridge pickup (are these brass?)
and one of the crazy apparatus that was in my Stratford x-350 to switch between the 3 pickups (boy did it rattle!)

[Franz 1997]

slightly OT, but anyone know where I can get replacement Franz covers (new ones, not old stock)?

There is, or was, somewhere on the net that did them; I repaired a trashed franz 50s Guild for someone a couple of years ago, and the customer bought repro covers from the USA. Can't remember the exact source though.

Not to be contentious, but I'm not sure why members are insisting that the Franz is the better pickup. Even though I'm a fan ( see my username) having examined and fitted both kinds, I'd say the Franz's were less well made than P90s. That said, I agree they are an appropriate match for some guitars, particularly Guilds, and they look very cool.

Basically, they are a lower wound, more erratically constructed P90, with a more pronounced top end and with more sensible wiring via the attached tags. No problems replacing pickup units here.

[neatomic]

great pics tuscon matt!!…that switch is mid century modern (1950's) hi tech!! haha

for the covers i'd contact the same guys i mentioned earlier in thread-

cordoba guitars (who now make guild and sell franz pups) see link above..and seymour duncan and curtis novak...

you may have to do a bit of shaving or trimming, but…its worth a shot

franz1997-

franz pups aside from being odder and rarer than gibby p90's were also most likely wound with different gauge wire than #42…so they will sound different from p90's regardless of the pups resistance reading...

the current trend in pickups is away from the stalwarts and a re-evaluation of the odder vintage pickups like gold foils (both dearmond & teisco), bigsby pickups, mosrite/carvin ap-6, gibsons staple pups etc etc..and with good reason, they were used by a heck of alot of players on a heck of alot of (now) classic recordings and they do sound good..esp. with todays better set up guitars and electronics

lastly, franz was a queens nyc company local to guild factory…so it was all kept in the hood

cheers

[Jazzman301]

Its not a bad pup. Its just not really capable of the tone I am after. Its a very trebly pup. Its not very warm and almost over articulate leaning towards microphonic in the upper strings.

'Moe

[neatomic]

understood, and hopefully you have some good leads to explore from this thread...

tho can i ask what kind of strings you are using?

cheers

[Jazzman301]

LaBella 13-53 flatwounds(20PM). I use the heavier 14-56(20PH) on my Peerless Monarch with a HB route and a Pete Biltoft HCC pickup. I also have the 13-53 on my Gretsch G100CE with a hand wound KA floating 12 pole PAF with a coil tap.



'Moe

[neatomic]

cool…ok..the labellas are fine fine strings but are made of stainless steel..as all usa made flats are (incl. chromes!)…i'd recommend trying (european makers) thomastik or pyramid flats..they are pure nickel..have less magnetic output than stainless steel…scientifically mellower!! haha…perfect for times when the pup seems a bit too aggressive, bright, gritty etc

other choice is rotosounds lone monel flatwound set…it's a 12-52 set..but meaty stiff!!!..monel is classic vintage string metal..as in gibson mona-steel strings of the 50's…also mellower than stainless steel..a bit more midrange than pure nickel

string witchcraft!..

haha

but it makes a difference!!!

cheers

ps- i like your choices in pups!!

[Jimmy Mack]

Y'know, I had a Guild ST-302 in the late 60's that i was firmly attached to, and in the early 70's, I wanted THAT guitar to become something other than what it was. I wanted the heavier, jazzier, and more grindy tone that was so popular then. That guitar didn't do it, so....I installed Gibson hum buckers, thinking they would give me the TONE.
Guess what...no TONE. It's a shame I altered the guitar, and ended up passing it on - bought a Gibson.

Maybe the guitar won't do it. I don't know what you are looking to find, but maybe a trip to GC and playing some other instruments can get you where you want to be. I recently fell in love with the (new) Epiphone ES 175. Never wanted to, but there it was. I was astounded at how good a guitar it was. Opened my eyes! and ears.

[Hep To The Jive]

I love my Guilds the way they are, never been a fan of Gibson actually. My x-50 with the neck Franz sounds very thick, maybe because the neck is pretty fat and rounded. But then again, I might wanna try a Lollar P90 one day, they sound really good too.

[LaVinci]

cool…ok..the labellas are fine fine strings but are made of stainless steel..as all usa made flats are (incl. chromes!)…i'd recommend trying (european makers) thomastik or pyramid flats..they are pure nickel..have less magnetic output than stainless steel…scientifically mellower!! haha…perfect for times when the pup seems a bit too aggressive, bright, gritty etc

other choice is rotosounds lone monel flatwound set…it's a 12-52 set..but meaty stiff!!!..monel is classic vintage string metal..as in gibson mona-steel strings of the 50's…also mellower than stainless steel..a bit more midrange than pure nickel

string witchcraft!..

haha

but it makes a difference!!!

cheers

ps- i like your choices in pups!!

Yes, I had a set of Newtone arch top strings 13-56, but switched to d'addario strings. Again I think the pure nickel strings made a big difference in the electric sound. Nickel and magnetic pickups gomtogether

[mad dog]

I know this is an old thread, but I am lucky enough to have Anton's blond X-50 now. (Cannot thank you enough Anton!)

This single Franz is one of the strongest, best sounding pickups I've heard. These seem to be variable in strength and sound, as are the older Gibson P-90s. For whatever reason, this particular p/u is truly something special. As are the standard wind Lollar P-90s in my Heritage H525. I go back and forth between the two. Endlessly fascinating. Similar sounds, but the Franz is not quite a P-90. Cleaner, a different kind of push and drive when volume goes up. Can't decide which is better. Both win.
MD