I love joe pass but the JP-20 just sounds tinny to me

[jzucker]

[Cunamara]

And he played it for years- from, what, ~1980 to the early 90s. Ibanez paid him something like $25k a year to be seen in public with it, so that may have been an appreciable chunk of his income and let him pick and choose gigs with greater deliberation. But why the hell didn't Ibanez fix the problems and give him a better guitar?

[Stringswinger]

I find that Joe's sound in the video's on youtube with the JP-20 vary from video to video. He played through lots of different amps in those days. There is a lot of trash talk about the JP-20 from guys who have never played one.

I own one. It is a fine guitar. Would I like it better if the pickup was against the neck? Most likely. Would I like my 175's better if the pickup was against the neck? Probably. They are what they are. For real dark rooms, the JP-20 is a pretty fine guitar. It is brighter than my 175's, but that could be the pickup, construction etc.

There is not much difference between the pickup location of the JP-20 to a 175. One half inch to be exact, but the JP-20 has a longer scale (by three fourths of an inch to be exact) so there is not much difference. For guys who like a 175 to condemn the JP-20 over pickup placement is actually somewhat stupid.

Here is the most important statement I can make about the JP-20.

Mine is not for sale.

That said, as with all of my guitar opinions, YMMV

[Stringswinger]

This video is a very accurate example of how the JP-20 sounds.

[Para]

A guitar is just a guitar you either like it or you don't.

[Archie]

I found my JP-20 to have a very articulate rich tone and a neck to die for. Happily own another one.

[Jabbarn]

It sounds better to me in that video than I remember it sounding in other videos and recordings.

[MarkRhodes]

This video is a very accurate example of how the JP-20 sounds.

Thanks for posting this. I hand't seen / heard it. Tastes vary; this guitar sounds fine to me! ;o)

[destinytot]

Lovely sound and playing from wonderful Joe Pass (and, from 1m06secs for about five seconds, some nice shots of his right hand from below - pinky...pickguard...hello...)!

[destinytot]

Sounds tinny to me too. EQ?

[Max405]

Hi guys, I think the jp20 will be a terrific guitar for me when I get one. I want it sound like a jp20, not any other guitar. To be honest, I wish my 165 sounded more like my L5, but it never will an I am ok with that. Like SS said the tight articulate defined sound, similar to what I hear in the majority of Joe's solo studio recordings is what I'm after. My 165 sounds the same for obvious reasons.
Jack you know how to stir the pot. Have you ever owned a jp20? If so, maybe you can tell us more. Perhaps it's just that particular video that sounds tinny to you? I think it's his touch and maybe the amp contributing. The Django influence is apparent.

[vinlander]

It also sounds quite thin to my ears (but Joe plays wonderfully) and it has nothing to do with finger style playing.
With that said, I think it can serve the finger style quite good being more open, less focussed and overall brighter, not just my cup of tea for bob/bebop tone.
It is interesting to note Joe is quite thunking with his special thinner 175 with pup to the neck playing finger style; a proof the pick will not make a non thunking guitar thunk, but a thunking guitar can still thunk finger style...

[skykomishone]

It is interesting to note Joe is quite thunking with his special thinner 175 with pup to the neck playing finger style; a proof the pick will not make a non thunking guitar thunk, but a thunking guitar can still thunk finger style...

That's brilliant. Who would have thunk it?

Love that Joe Pass.

[jzucker]

Hi guys, I think the jp20 will be a terrific guitar for me when I get one. I want it sound like a jp20, not any other guitar. To be honest, I wish my 165 sounded more like my L5, but it never will an I am ok with that. Like SS said the tight articulate defined sound, similar to what I hear in the majority of Joe's solo studio recordings is what I'm after. My 165 sounds the same for obvious reasons.
Jack you know how to stir the pot. Have you ever owned a jp20? If so, maybe you can tell us more. Perhaps it's just that particular video that sounds tinny to you? I think it's his touch and maybe the amp contributing. The Django influence is apparent.

Yes I have. Like all Ibanez guitars, it played like a dream but ultimately it was too bright for my tastes. If you play it with a pick it's even brighter. You can turn down the tone control on the guitar and treble control on the amp and warm it up a bit but (to me) it doesn't have the rich harmonic structure that I want in a guitar for straight ahead jazz or for solo guitar. I agree with you though that if you have 4 or 5 guitars you can probably fit it in a niche somewhere. I don't much like my strat for playing joe pass solo guitar arrangements but it sure sounds good when I play "little wing"!

And of course, it's all subjective. Please don't think i'm putting anyone down. Just offering my opinion. For a solo jazz guitar sound, I much prefer *THIS* tone but nobody's right and wrong here. It's all personal taste.

[Max405]

I am glad you owned one, because your opinion counts a lot to me.
I will like it for what it is. I look forward to getting one. If I want deep, dark, mellow I'm covered. If I want the genuine jp20 sound then I'd be really proud to own one.
I still want my Tal though.
Thanks for having the balls to state your opinion. We ALL value it.
by the way, I found out that only the 1st 1000 were signed by Joe. that narrows my search. But I will not pay more than 165 money for it. $2500, forget about it..

[jzucker]

I think you should be able to find one for $1299-$1800. i think i paid $1500 for mine. Ibanez prices seem to fluctuate quite a bit. A while back I was looking for a blonde GB10 and I couldn't find one less than $2700. Then one came up at $1800 and I bought it. Now the prices seem to be going the other direction.

The other thing to consider is finding a 775 which is closer to what Joe was playing in that other video I posted. But, there's nothing wrong with a JP20. It wouldn't be my goto guitar but the quality is so high and the neck is so nice, I'd love to have another one. Same deal with the Ibanez PM-120 or PM-100. I'd love to have one again.

I'm waiting to try an Ibanez PM-200. I have the feeling it would suit me well but not for $3500!

[Greentone]

FWIW, as a former JP-20 player, the problem isn't the pickup its position. The "problem" ... if you want to call it that ... is the two extra frets on the neck. _Nobody_ needs those frets in archtop jazz, and they radically alter the neck body geometry. Among other things, they force the position of the ES-175-inspired pickup farther out away from the "node." However, even if the pickup was against the neck, it would still be the case that the extra frets would cause the pickup to be out of position.

Ibanez should have left the fretboard at 20 frets. Heck, the original 19-fret board of the 1949 ES-175 was just fine.

Still and all, the JP-20 is an _excellent_ guitar. If I yet had one I would treasure it.

[jzucker]

FWIW, as a former JP-20 player, the problem isn't the pickup its position. The "problem" ... if you want to call it that ... is the two extra frets on the neck. _Nobody_ needs those frets in archtop jazz, and they radically alter the neck body geometry. Among other things, they force the position of the ES-175-inspired pickup farther out away from the "node." However, even if the pickup was against the neck, it would still be the case that the extra frets would cause the pickup to be out of position.

Ibanez should have left the fretboard at 20 frets. Heck, the original 19-fret board of the 1949 ES-175 was just fine.

Still and all, the JP-20 is an _excellent_ guitar. If I yet had one I would treasure it.

the PM-120 had 22 frets and 1) I used every one of them, 2) the neck pickup sounded just fine. Of course, it's a 24.75" scale...

[Greentone]

I take your point. IMO, though, most archtop guitars really come into their own--in terms of tone--between the third and twelfth frets. Below and above that, things get less "vibey." To me, it's just the instrument's sweet spot. I'll play all over, but I will consciously attempt to get things into that part of the neck.

By comparison, a dreadnought just bangs from open strings to the third fret. IMO, most archtops aren't even getting out of first gear down there.

12th fret on? That's ES-335 & Strat/Tele territory, IMO. Those guitars just sing to the skies up there. Oh, yeah...and Les Pauls!

[Dave70]

Wow nice vid! My favorite Joe pass I've seen, or heard so far. Sweet playing and tone! That bass player is pretty good too.

[Stringswinger]

@Jack and Greentone,

I think the problem (if a bright sounding guitar is a problem) with the JP-20 is the 25.5 scale. I have another Ibanez, the AF-207 which has the same body as the JP-20 but is a 24.7 scale with the pickup in the ES-175 position and it has thunk! What is really strange is that the pickup is a ceramic pickup made by DiMarzio (as opposed to the Ibanez pickup in the JP-20. I would love a 6 string version of the AF-207 (it is a 7 string guitar). But what I would really love is a 175 like Joe was playing at the end. The 775 (with it's Ebony board and different body thickness) is NOT that guitar. I just do not see the extra frets as being the problem.

The JP-20 is a bright guitar. And the pickup position does kind of get into my picking area real estate. I think that because Joe Pass was fingerpicking close to the neck, they engineered that guitar with the extra space around the pickup and the longer scale. Joe was looking for comfort and cut.

Those who like the bright sound of a Bennedetto/Ibanez Benson/Acoustic archtop with a floater, as opposed to the dark sound of an ES-175 and its ilk would like the JP-20. Those who want that dark thunky sound should look elsewhere.

@Joe D.

$2500!!! At that price I might sell mine, and my JP-20 is one of the first 1000 made with Joe's signature on the label. I paid $1500 plus shipping for mine about 2 years ago from a Music store in Denver. $2500 will get you a 175. The JP-20 is a fine guitar, but it is no ES-175. And I would bet that even Joe Pass would agree with that!

[jzucker]

I take your point. IMO, though, most archtop guitars really come into their own--in terms of tone--between the third and twelfth frets. Below and above that, things get less "vibey." To me, it's just the instrument's sweet spot. I'll play all over, but I will consciously attempt to get things into that part of the neck.

By comparison, a dreadnought just bangs from open strings to the third fret. IMO, most archtops aren't even getting out of first gear down there.

12th fret on? That's ES-335 & Strat/Tele territory, IMO. Those guitars just sing to the skies up there. Oh, yeah...and Les Pauls!

the pm120 sounds great all the way up to the 22nd fret on the high strings.

[Archie]

I wil tell you that imo the Jp-20 with a set of flat 12's does not sound thin. Think of the tone more as like what you would get from a single coil Rhythm Chief. Great note separation but each note is round and stingy, if that makes sense.

I found no harshness at all up in the higher treble register and a cheap, thin sound would be the opposite.

For the most part i do not like Joe's sound and I would definitely not chose a Jp-20 on watching him play one. I found it to be a very different much fuller, much more interesting guitar.

[jzucker]

I wil tell you that imo the Jp-20 with a set of flat 12's does not sound thin. Think of the tone more as like what you would get from a single coil Rhythm Chief. Great note separation but each note is round and stingy, if that makes sense.

I found no harshness at all up in the higher treble register and a cheap, thin sound would be the opposite.

For the most part i do not like Joe's sound and I would definitely not chose a Jp-20 on watching him play one. I found it to be a very different much fuller, much more interesting guitar.

i know several very good jazz guitarists who owne JP-20s who have struggled with the brightness, changing pickups, adding a floating neck pickup in between the neck and the existing set-in pickup so it's not just me.

Again, it's all personal taste but it's definitely bright for a jazz guitar. chet atkins and merle travis sounded great using both pickups so anything's possible. I'm just saying that for me, it's not the rich, full bodied solo jazz guitar sound that we think of as traditional.

[Max405]

@Joe D.

$2500!!! At that price I might sell mine, and my JP-20 is one of the first 1000 made with Joe's signature on the label. I paid $1500 plus shipping for mine about 2 years ago from a Music store in Denver. $2500 will get you a 175. The JP-20 is a fine guitar, but it is no ES-175. And I would bet that even Joe Pass would agree with that!

totally agreed. Archtop dot com has one for 2500. I'll pass, no thanks.
SS, you have too many nice guitars. It's only fair that you share. Pm me if you ever want to make a couple hundred on yours. I'm not expecting a pm but you never know. You might feel guilty after reading this..
JD