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Saw a great quartet (Zack Lozier) the other night playing some really hot New Orleans jazz. Trumpet, trombone, bass and banjo. They were really amazing and it reignited a desire to play that type of music. I really got into Django about 10 years ago which is how I got familiar with all those songs, Sheik of Araby, Dinah, etc. Back then I bought a Gitane guitar, played with a buddy of mine for a while and then gave it up. Just didn't think I'd be able to master the Gypsy picking technique. But now, all I really want to do is play chords-- and straight away American horn jazz. Just play a sweet rhythm and let the horns do their thing. I'll be a happy man if I can do that.
I noticed how the banjo, which is a loud instrument, was almost barely audible in the mix. I mean it was there, in a nice rhythmic way, but not over-bearing like banjos can often be. I'm wondering what kind of guitar would best fit the bill. An archtop of some sort? A selmer-type (Gypsy jazz) guitar? The thing about the selmer types are they are a bit heavy on the treble side, almost banjo like. Maybe that's a good thing? Cut through the horn mix? Or maybe an archtop with phosphor bronze strings would be more the ticket?
I suppose I should mention my ideal budget is in the $500 range.Last edited by mcgannahan; 05-11-2015 at 10:53 PM.
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05-11-2015 10:49 PM
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Either a selmer-style, or an acoustic archtop, or a resonator.
So an acoustic archtop would be the best choice, but the cheapest thing in an actually acoustic viable archtop is a used Loar LH-600, which may be slightly out of budget. I'd avoid getting a lower level LH-300 or any brand with their "pressed" tops - Gretsch, Godin, Guild... If you want an acoustic archtop, Loar and Eastman are the only way to go, but a Loar will run you more like $700.
You could also go with a Resonator. My friend in New Orleans, Matt Bell (Aurora Neeland's Royal Roses) uses a National Polycrome Tricone, much like this one:
National Resophonic Polychrome Tricone Resonator Guitar | eBay
Sounds awesome, and is LOUD. But the cheapest decent option in Resonators are the Republic Brand, and those are also gonna be just about $500, and usually in the $700 range. Personally, I held out for a National and was glad I did, but I was sure tempted a bunch of times.
In your budget, the most realistic option is a Selmer-style. The cheapest option is the Cigano line, and frankly, for $400 they're surprisingly good. Better guitars than any $400 archtop or resonator. When properly set up, a Cigano will do fantastically. I think most of the guys I've seen in New Orleans were using a selmer-style, Russell Welch (Meschiya Lake, etc.) for example. Even the tiny little music store in the Quarter had to start carrying Argentine strings, because there are so many guys using Selmer-styles in the quarter.
Both the archtop and selmer are mid-rangey and nasal compared to a flat top, and that focus and punch will serve you in the setting you're describing. The National has a lot more body, but also more sheer volume, so it works too.
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I can relate to this thread, Im playing in a similar setting often, with very loud trumpet player, tuba, drummer, and accordionist. I also have Selmer type Gitano guitar that I was trying to use.... It never quite worked for me, because the guys wanted me to have solo breaks, and without amplification it could never be heard, especially in a noisy environments. Even for the rhythm, I could barely hear myself. My solution- I just got tenor banjo, and volume wise it solved all the problems. Of course, learning to play it is the whole different problem
. But at least Im having fun learning a new instrument.
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Selmer style or a resonator.
Man, I'd like a resonator...
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How about my Telecaster? LOL!
Seriously, until I can obtained a reasonable instrument, my choices to practice on are my Epiphone Acoustic dreadnaught or my Tele / Vox Pathfinder amp. I much prefer the Tele actually. I wonder how it would work in a band situation like that, amp turned low and using the neck pickup? That would certainly solve any volume issues!
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Well, back in the day, guitarists would play a six-string banjo, guitar tuning. Louder than any archtop guitar.
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Would they, Rob? You know more about this stuff than I do...I thought more common would just be a plectrum banjo in "Chicago" tuning.
Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Another question-- Can the Selmer style guitars sound decent with PB strings?
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Be careful with PB strings on a Selmer style guitar. They are braced for light strings. I have seen guys try PB 13's on a Selmer style guitar and cause damage...
Those guitars sound best with silvered strings, but some guys (my friend, New Orleans guitarist Tony Green being one) do use PB strings on those guitars and make it sound great. The PB strings are cheaper and last longer as well.
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This is why I ask, as I remember from my "Gypsy days" that the Argentines would go dead very quickly, plus they had quality control issues. I hear D'Addario has some silver coated strings now that may be better. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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But I'm still wondering how the Tele would mix in. I bet if those dudes who tuned their banjo like a guitar would have had a Tele available they'de have been all over it.
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Jeff, you are right in that some players played Plectrum banjo, and some of those guys used Chicago tuning (DGBE, for those unsure of what that is). However, the greatest of them all was Johnny St Cyr, Louis Armstrong's number 1 banjo and guitar player: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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My vote: Selmer style "Grande Bouche" which in this context means the Cigano GJ-5 or GJ-15.
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PS For all fans of early jazz, here are Johnny St Cyr's own recollections: JOHNNY ST. CYR
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You can hear Johnny on the banjo-guitar at the start of "Got No Blues" - the Hot Five - he even gets a chord solo, briefly:
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Don't say the "B" word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A brass/steel resonator is the only acoustic guitar I can think of that might be able to keep up with un-muted horns up-amplifed. They are quite directional though, meaning that if the listener is off side to it, it loses volume. Keep in mind that not all resonators are created equal. On the cheap side, the Republic's are pretty good, though you'll need to replace the stock cone(s) with something from Beard or National and you'll also need to get a good setup for non-slide playing.
If the horns are muted, a gypsy guitar would serve well if all you want to do is rhythm. Cigano for cheap though you might have to go through a few to find a properly loud one. Make you where ever you buy from has a good return policy.
With your budget, you might get lucky with a stock instrument, but if you really want to pursue it, plan on spending about twice that.
Personally, I stuck a Baggs M80 magnetic pickup in my gypsy guitar and run it through a Crate Taxi for small gigs/jams or a Quilter MicroPro 200 for large/loud gigs.
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If you're just gonna play banjo, then play banjo. Play a six string-banjitar. But you're not playing guitar at that point. The resonance and response of a banjo is a whole different thing. Apples ≠ Oranges.
But seriously, a Tele? Why bother?
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Originally Posted by campusfive
Who is saying to play a banjo?
But seriously, a Tele? Why bother?
Quite simply because Telecasters rule the earth.
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LOL ....
B ... b bbbbb ... bbbbaaaa ..... bbbbbbaaaaannnnn ..... jjj jjj .... jjj .. jo
I picked up a 6 string banjo a little while back ... tuned it like a guitar
Used it on some 1920s era pieces my band performed
Seems like a better fit for Dixie/Nawlins style jazz ....
but I'm no expert .. I never even played one on TV
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Well, when Brad Paisley sat in (and tore it up with) the Preservation Hall Band, he played a tele...
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Sticky question. Good answers already posted here, here is my summary:
A banjo is far more cutting acoustically than a guitar could ever hope to be, and for New Orleans jazz is the standard choice. Early photos (1910s) show flattop guitars sometimes, but it's hard to see how these could be heard alongside a traditional three piece frontline. Perhaps the music was quieter at this point.
For *swing*, the choice is either an acoustic archtop (ala Eddie Lang and Freddie Green) or a Maccaferri (for European musicians such as Django, Oscar Aleman or Al Bowly.) Swing is NOT New Orleans music, and grew up in New York and Kansas City (and Paris!), among other places, while obviously inspired by the earlier style.
Needless to say later we had Charlie Christian and the electric guitar.
These guitars have more midrange projection than a standard flat top but are still disadvantaged volume wise compared to the banjo. Listen to any period swing record with a full rhythm section (inc. drums) where the guitar is not the featured soloist (and therefore not right next to the mic during recording) and see how well you can hear the guitar. Chances are not well - the guitar colours the sound of the drums and adds to the feel but it is hard to pick out on its own.
Resonators are popular in some circles, but have a strikingly different sound to either the Banjo or the Archtop.
These days, with the advent of decent acoustic amplification, we can of course boost the role of the guitar in the mix....Last edited by christianm77; 05-12-2015 at 07:26 PM.
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If it's sheer volume you are after, I would recommend an Altamira M01D which is louder than most Gitanes I have tried (Gitanes are somewhat variable in quality, Altamiras seem more consistent from the examples I have tried). That should give you a fighting chance acoustically - although single string solos might be a stretch, depending on the audience....
Last edited by christianm77; 05-12-2015 at 07:23 PM.
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I suspect Brad Paisley can do whatever he wants. Yours truly, if he brought a Tele to a trad gig, well I should try that sometime, might be funny.... But I agree, Tele's are clearly the best fretted stringed instrument that there are. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Last edited by christianm77; 05-12-2015 at 07:30 PM.
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I'm not finding this. These days I find I can get 5-6 gigs out of Argentines, a few years back I'd break them every other gig. I used to prefer the D'addarios, but now I like them less. Originally Posted by mcgannahan
I think a lot depends on how you whack 'em. My touch has softened a fair bit, I can still project as much though. It takes a few years to refine the balance between projection and well - playing too hard....Last edited by christianm77; 05-12-2015 at 07:34 PM.
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I play in a small trad combo , the line up is tube, trombone, trumpet and guitar. I have used a banjo, and also use an arch top- usually my Gretsch Synchromatic 400, sometimes (for a purely acoustic sound) my 1958 Hofner Senator. On the Gretsch I have a CC pickup , running that though my Quilter amp gives me a nice rhythm sound, still has an acoustic personality to it though. I EQ the guitar for this band much differently to normal, I cut almost all the bass, leaving me with a sound that doesn't get boomy and is appropriate to its role in the group.
With my Hofner, I generally stick a good mic to it and that's it - not much to do there. It's a great guitar for that style- however I like the Gretsch's electric sound when I'm taking solos.
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