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On a carved top such as my L5 or L4, should the strings be loosen if it is to be stored for about 6 months?
thanks.
great forum.
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04-22-2015 10:49 AM
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You could loosen off the strings and take the tension out of the rod, unless you like the set up. Personally I have never had an issue with leaving strings on, as long as the neck is in a good place before you do i.e not too much relief.
I may be wrong but thats my take.
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I would be more worried about humidification/ dehumidification while in storage.
Thanks john
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I can attest that no serious harm will come to an L-5 if it is stored in a regular house with the strings to pitch. My house is heated but not air conditioned, so the temperature ranges from about 60F to 85F, winter to summer, but we are blessed with near constant humidity.
To me one obvious downside to storing with full tension is that when the house cools down the tension increases. So, I try to remember to tune down a whole step or so when I put my guitars away.
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Originally Posted by kamlapati
Right thats interesting. So yes that would mean a slight detune would be better than leaving it at pitch. I hadn't taken those factors into consideration.
I think its interesting that a lot of Americans have so many issues with humidity or lack of and changing weather. Here in the UK our weather is so gradual that I've never had to worry about such things (or I should and I'm just ignorant to it).
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I always store guitars fully tuned, on the basis that I prefer to keep the truss rod at its usual tension, to avoid letting the neck wood de-compress and then having to re-compress it when taken out of storage. Yes, changes in temperature can affect tension but not by much, so tuning down a little wouldn't make a lot of difference.
I've had guitars in cases for years that come out still almost in tune and at pitch.
I can't see the case for de-tuning a guitar when stored; why would you?
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Originally Posted by powerwagonjohn
I would echo this worry. In the NE USA, there is a fair bit of rainfall/humidity through the yr. : 45" annually on average with some years as much as 65". In my apt., the winter heat can be described, politely, as "intermittent"....I sometimes ran an electric oil-filled space heater...nice and quiet, and pretty cheap to run, and good for heating a small area up to a nice toasty temperature. In a small room, this would drive the humidity gauge (hygrometer) down to the 30's....where 40-60 is considered "normal range". Leaving a guitar out, meant that next day I would be cranking those tuners tighter to get back to pitch. In fact, I learned that a guitar itself can be a pretty sensitive humidity gauge. The slightly damp rag in the F hole, stored overnight in the closed case helped a lot--little or no cranking.
Cool air does not retain moisture very well...an unheated attic space will become bone dry by itself. Conversely, dry air does not retain heat well....which is why good heating systems often have attached humidifiers: A properly humidified "air blanket" saves you money on running your furnace, less, than otherwise.
My hygrometer is a small little thing, which I took out of a cigar humidor. You can probably buy one for less than $5, and it is accurate enough to be useful...a little bit here or there, doesn't matter...but extended dry periods are not kind to musical instruments.
My parents retired to subtropical Florida...almost every day in the summer it would rain at 4 pm, and then clear...so summer months had high humidity, but winter months could be almost bone dry.
I was looking at a guitar being sold by a guy in Fla. who mentioned that if someone wanted to look at, he would meet at a storage facility, which made me shudder. Some of these indoor places are heated and humidified, others are like a cool, bone dry attic.
I always thought these companies that made graphite-based instruments (Rainsong and others) should really focus their marketing efforts at the extreme temp. areas of the U.S---the dry southwest, west, and the moist, sultry Gulf Coast areas (Fla, through to La.).
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The comments on humidity being more important than concerns about string tension are, IMO, spot on. I've got 5 of these distributed in different areas of my home . . with two in my guitar room.
Extech 445715 Humidity Meter Big Digit Remote Probe Hygro-Thermometer | TEquipment.NET
My L5CES has been out in the open, sitting on a guitar stand (nitro friendly) since 1994. However, if you'll be storing it in a guitar case for 6 months . . keeping the RH inside the case will be a bit more of a chore. I'd check with flat top and classical builders on in-case humidifiers. Also, there's a guy here, goes by the handle of ii7V7I7 (or something like that . . . maybe another forum member can confirm his exact forum nmae??) He can probably give very expert advice on in-case humidification.
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So Patrick is it better to leave my L5CES out of the case? Originally Posted by Patrick2
I have refrained from leaving guitars out because of all sorts of reasons.
Potential for accidental damage
Sun bleaching the finish? (you know what I mean)
Etc..
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I must be the luckiest person in guitardom.
I have never humidified anything...the outside temperature here ranges from -30C to 40C over the year with the attendant change in humidity...and I live 50 feet from a lake.
I leave guitars in cases out of cases, hanging on walls etc etc and have NEVER had a problem with any. No cracks, no fret sprouting. A couple of seasonal truss rod adjustments keeps them playing fine. This includes living in Chicago, New York and Connecticut.
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I find it much easier to maintain a constant RH outside of the case than inside. Excessive humidity inside a sealed environment with zero air flow can cause all sorts of havic. Also, if you are fortunate enough to find a system that can ensure proper RH levels inside the case . . . what's going to happen when you take the guitar out of the case for an hour or two to play it . . and the ambient RH in the room is considerably lower that the environment the guitar was in forthe past few days? Dramatic swings from low to high RH levels . . or high to low ones is definitely not a good thing for a spruce top.. Expand, contract, expand contract . . swell up, shrink down, swell up, shrink down . . . not good!! Whereas sitting on a stand surrounded by hygrometers . . it only takes a brief glance at the hygrometers to know whether or not my guitars are . . . happy. No fluctuation = stability. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Regarding possible sun bleaching . . heck man, just don't let the sun hit the guitar . . easy as that. Shades, blinds . . . etc. Accidental damage?? How so? Do you have crazy cats or dogs running around? Young unruley children? If not . . . . . it's pretty hard to damage a guitar if you're careful not to.
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You should see what a rogue chinchilla did to my acoustic guitar when i was young :-( Originally Posted by Patrick2
Right better get the L5 out then. You've sold me.
Also any gassing will happen in the case as its a sealed environment.
Cheers patrick
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Did you at least catch the chinchilla and sell its pelt.
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Put them in cases such as these. The humidity is maintained like a rock regardless of room conditions. Amazing construction. Optional UV glass to protect from sunlight.
Acoustic Remedy Cases - Wooden Guitar Case Humidity Controlled - Acoustic Remedy Cases
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Really ? I always thought that guitars react slowly to humidity and that the dangerous swings, besides a good Mills Brothers number, was the temperature swing. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Anyway, to vaguely quote MrB's quote : nothing ain't corny if it swings ! ... sorry ...l couldn't help
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Aaahhh . . . . The Mills Brothers!!! Originally Posted by xuoham
Two separate issues, temperature swings and RH swings . . . and they cause two different problems.
Dramatic and rapid swings in temperature will not harm the wood of the guitar nearly as easily as they will the topical coating (finish) that's applied to it. Thus . . finish checking, or crazing.
Dramatic and rapid swings in RH will cause unprotected wood to swell and retract due to high RH and low RH, respectively. Let's not forget that the entirey of the inside of the body is unsealed and unprotected. This constant swelling and retracting is obviously very detrimental to the overall tonal quality of the wood, whether or not it causes splits and/or cracks. That's precisely why proper aging, whether artificial (kiln) or natural, is critical to tone wood. It's all about constant stability of RH . . . no fluctuations at best and very slight and gradual fluctuations at worst. The RH in my guitar room is at an almost constant 47% to 50% . . and I keep a ceiling fan running on low speed, to ensure enough air flow to take the moisture inside the F holes and reach the raw unsealed wood.
Here's a great example; not long ago . . maybe 3 months, I had a few trees removed from my yard. My wife asked the crew removing the trees to cut a slice off of the bottom approx 1/2" thick. Her intent was to have our nephew fine sand it and put a couple of coats of urethane on it and use it as a trivet. I told her that I thought it was a great idea . . but I let here feel how moist the slice of maple was . . and I told her to leave it in my guitar room with a towel on top of it for a few months so that it could dry out slowly over a longer period of time. Well, my wife is not a patient woman . . (which begs the question of why the hell she has stayed with me for 46 years . . but, I digress).
I went off to work at around 9:30 AM one day. When I came home at around 6 PM, she showed me the slice of maple and offered an inquisitive . . "how the heck did this happen??" I asked her where she put the slice of wood after I left. She said she didn't want to wait months for the wood to dry, so she put it directly in front of one of the air registers/vents of our HVAC system. Three months ago, it was still quite cold here in New Jersey, and we had the heat running. Ours' is a forced warm air system. Here's a photo of how the wood split due to VERY accelerated drying. Now . . the really interesting thing is, when I've left that slice of wood in the yard on rainy days . . those splits would TOTALLY close back up, as the wood rehydrated and swelled back to its original state. The splits were less severe at that time, but even as severe as they are now, if it's a rainy day . . all day long, they will still close significantly. Hopefully, it will rain within the next few days.Last edited by Patrick2; 04-29-2015 at 11:17 AM.
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Hmmm ... interesting ...
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The same here in Denmark (which has about the same climate as UK). FWIW, my old ES 175 has been strung up and tuned to pitch since I got it in 1973, except for a few hours here and there when maintainence / PU swap etc. has been carried out. I have never experienced any cracking in any of my guitars. On some of them - but not them all - I have to adjust the truss rod slightly in spring and autumn but that's it. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
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Update: Ok . . so, instead of waiting for a rainy day, I soaked down the slice of wood. While the full content of the wood has not yet re hydrated, you can see a marked difference from the original photo above, of when the wood was totally dried out. Notice the markings on the wood are the same . . as is the little white speck of bird shit. It's the same piece of wood. The split that was noticeable at the 3:00 position on the slice has completely closed. The other larger split has closed quite a bit, but not yet entirely. It will close intirely as the wood continues to re hydrate throughout. This is why good repair techs and luthiers use a hydration snake inserted into the F hole for a day or two, before they cleat a dehdration splite. They must first re hydrate the wood.
Last edited by Dirk; 11-15-2019 at 06:57 AM.
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Whenever anyone thinks it's not critical to keep your crafted instruments in a very controlled environment, just think about the dramatic difference in these two photos, before and after, of this particular wood slice. And also consider, this . . . the slice shown here is a full 1/2" thick.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
An excellent demonstration, Patrick! Thank you for the efforts!
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Thank you Patrick, you got us hooked. I wanna see the happy very end !
I never doubted the horrors of lack of humidity. However i am a bit less worried with high humidity (often over 70% where i am), as long as it's not freaking hot. Maybe i should, but except acoustic guitars sounding a bit dull, doesn't seem to be an issue.
On the other hand, in the Amazonian forest ... probably better tune down a big lot.
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Patrick knows his stuff.
So will that wood end up in your grill?
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Naaa . . . Got hickory for the grill. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
I'm still messin' with that slice of wood. Got it resting under a saturated towel over night. I'm curious to see if the big split will close totally as it did a few times during the rainy weather. Or, if the big split is just too far gone. I'll check it out in the morning. If there's a noticeable difference, I take a few pics and post them.
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OK . . . here's the final installment of the dehydration - rehydration process and how the wood top on your arch top guitar will swell and retract in a fluctuating RH environment. Here's the third photo after the wood slice was left in a very high RH environment. Notice how the splits in the wood slice caused by dehydration are almost 100% closed and the slice is back to normal.
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