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I think i'm getting ready to make the plunge. I can get a used heritage for about $2500 and the used L5 for about $5500. Is it worth spending the extra money? Will I hear any difference? In the past I've owned each (never at the same time) and my impression was that the heritage was every bit as good but I'm interested in opinions from folks who have had both.
One thing I've noticed with my Gibson 175 vs some of the other japanese copies is that the Gibson is an order of magnitude better than my Aria Pro II Herb Ellis and most of the other japanese copies I've played so I've decided to return the aria and stick with Gibson or Heritage or perhaps Guild.
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04-04-2015 11:02 AM
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if the thin line sounds as good as I have no doubt the Eagle classic might sounds great.
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I think that
guitars are a bit like women, the better looking ones cost you twice as much.
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Agreed - but still might need a good set up ;-)
Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Just to point out a few things that you more than likely experienced when you owned each of these two models . . . as well as some other aspects may have forgotten about, or you may not have been aware of;
The bracing on each will be different. The L5CES will have additional braces (which the Eagle doesn't) coming off of the lower portions of the tone bars . . and they will extend [diagonlly] farther into the lower bass and treble sides of the lower bout. That, and the fact that the top and back on the L5CES will invariably be thicker than those of the Eagle Classic, will more than likely result in different tone . . and the L5CES may offer better feed back resistance at higher volumes.
Then, there's the matter of the body dimensions. The Eagle Classic has a smaller box size than the L5CES. This results in differences in tone, (3" vs 3-3/8" depth) as well as differences in comfort. Ask the person selling the Eagle Classic to give you perfect spot on measurements at the widest part of the lower bout. I know you are aware of how to properly measure lower bout width. But, taking measurements from as little as 1/2" away from the absolute widest part could result in a very incorrect measurement. Some people don't take the time to take multiple measurements. Some of the Eagle models (most of them) are spot on 17". Some are off. Many are 16-7/8". My 1994 Golden Eagle, custom made for me measures 16-3/4". The depth on mine is also 1/4" shallower at 2-3/4". Have the seller of the Eagle Classic also confirm a 3" depth. The original buyer could have spec'd 3-1/4". Many people do. These things ensure that each Eagle Classic will be far more nuanced from other similar Eagle Classics, than an L5CES will be from other L5CES'.
The body of an L5 model is also slightly longer (3/4") than that of an Eagle model. The box on any L5 model seems to NEVER vary from exacting specs. Gibson also offers a deeper carve at the heel of the neck, than Heritage does.
Neck position pickup; The Eagle Classic doesn't have a Cupid's Bow, as do the Golden Eagle and the L5. The neck pup is snugged up against the end of the fret board. Gibson having to take the Cupid's Bow into consideration, mounts their neck pup a little farther back towards the bridge.
The all important element of consistency; With an L5CES, you're pretty certain of what you're going to get. There were some slight variations of Gibson pups, neck profile, weight over different era of manufacture. But, not much more deviation than that from a cookie cutter blue printed L5CES. Even though the build process between Gibson and Heritage arch tops is almost identical, Heritage is far more of a custom shop, as it relates to allowing the craftsmen (and women) a free reign in determining neck profile, top thickness, back thickness . . and as I mentioned, rim depth.
Now, while taking that into consideration, also consider the person (original buyer) who could have/might have influenced the specs. As you know, a person can order almost any neck profile they want to from Heritage. Electronics; the customization of electronics also plays a big roll in how an Heritage Eagle Classic might sound. Depending upon the era of the Eagle Classic, if no customization was requested by the original owner, you might get great pots and caps . . you might get the shit they were buying from China or Japan. You might get Switch Craft . . you might not. You might get Schaller Golden '50s, (which I personally love) or Schaller's regular humbucker, or SD Seths or SD '59s. Or, as Jim Soloway did, the original buyer might have supplied their pickup of choice. I had one of my own Golden Eagles built with a singel neck pup 1970 Gibson T-Top. With Gibson . . there's no such variation. A Gibson L5CES will almost always be a cookie cutter L5CES. With a Heritage Eagle Classic . . there's just no telling what you're going to get. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing. Just saying it's a fact.
If you haven't already done so (that would be incredibly shocking, given who you are) insist on getting as much detailed info on the Eagle Classic as possible. By comparison, all you'll need to ask of the seller of the L5CES, is his description of the neck profile.Last edited by Patrick2; 04-04-2015 at 11:14 PM. Reason: wording
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Thanks Patrick2 for great info...:-)
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Patrick, that's superb information. Many thanks.
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thanks very much Patrick. Unfortunately, the guy selling the Heritage Eagle seems to not be real big on details so I have not been able to get a huge amount of info from him. I didn't realize the body thickness or width could vary so I didn't ask about that. Frankly, it sounds like it's worth paying the extra money to get the L5.
I have found a late '70s L5 for $5500 but the finish on the back of the neck is worn off and the pickups have been replaced. The guy selling it is in another state so I can't try it and he doesn't seem to know or care what pickups he replaced it with. When I asked him, he said they were humbuckers, lol. He probably thinks i'm being a PITA for asking for specifics. It also has a replaced pickguard but at least it's an L5 pickguard so that shouldn't effect the value.
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If you can find an L5 signed by Hutch.
Check Reverb.
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Given the info or, more appropriately the lack of info on the Eagle Classic, it's going to be a real crap shoot for you. I'd pass. Originally Posted by jzucker
On the L5CES, sounds like the owner of this guitar isn't really into what this guitar actually is or represents in the world of jazz guitars. Sounds like he's treating as just another electric jazz arch top. As you know my feelings on this . . . it's not just another guitar. It's an L5CES. I'd pass on this one too.
You're very fussy and very particular about what you want in a guitar. Neither of these can confirm far to many of your wants and needs. Slow down . . find what you want.
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If you don't like the pups you can always use that as an excuse to try out a Benedetto humbucker or some other choice jazz pup
I would expect both to be good guitars and possibly great guitars ..
Based on your videos I would say you could make either one sound great
Good Luck and enjoy whatever you choose to get
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thanks, he's holding it for me! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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I appreciate reading Patrick's archtop acumen! Wouldn't a Jim Triggs San Salvador (or the new St. Croix) be a reasonable alternative? Mr. Triggs did once head the archtop custom shop, and his designs appear Gibson-centric. Also, the used market for San Salvador's seem to be priced pretty reasonably, considering the quality level (note: I've never seen one in person, and I know there are not likely a lot of them out there). Jeff
Internet photo:
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the triggs looks interesting but the specs are all over the map according to each build. There is one on reverb.com for example with mahogany neck and rosewood fingerboard. The one on archtop.com has a single piece maple neck. Some have a single set in pickup, some have a single floater, etc. The one on archtop.com ls $4k. At that point, it's probably worth paying the extra dough and getting the L5.
I guess if you have the opportunity to play all of them side by side it would be ideal but other than new york, i'm not sure where you could do that and in NY, you're probably talking another $1500 for it.
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also in terms of investment/resale value a gibson L5 is going to trump a heritage or triggs
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That's because it's a Gibson L5CES . . . and nothing else on the planet, is a Gibson L5CES. Originally Posted by jzucker
I hope the 1976 you've got on hold turns out to be everything you want it to be. It sure does look good . . and the selling price seems more than fair given the description of near mint. Looking at close-ups of the photos, it appears that this guitar was pampered for the past 39 years. Not sure when another L5CES that's near 40 years old in near mint condition is going to come up for sale at $5,500. If I were on the hunt for an L5CES, I'd not *snooze and lose* on this one.
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what do you think of the investment value though of a non-flamed L5 CES? That and the slim neck profile are questions. The '75 I used to have probably had a similar neck profile, it was a cherry sunburst. The one that still gets me is the blonde '64 florentine I used to own in the '70s. Bought it for $1400 Originally Posted by Patrick2
That's because it's a Gibson L5CES . . . and nothing else on the planet, is a Gibson L5CES.
I hope the 1976 you've got on hold turns out to be everything you want it to be. It sure does look good . . and the selling price seems more than fair given the description of near mint. Looking at close-ups of the photos, it appears that this guitar was pampered for the past 39 years. Not sure when another L5CES that's near 40 years old in near mint condition is going to come up for sale at $5,500. If I were on the hunt for an L5CES, I'd not *snooze and lose* on this one.
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I believe the matter of an L5 from the '70s with non figured maple is no longer an issue of concern for most L5 aficionados. I also believe that there are probably just as many jazz guitarists who prefer a slimmer neck profile, as there are those who prefer a fuller profile. IMO, it's a non issue. Originally Posted by jzucker
If I were to be very critical of this guitar from an aesthetic point of view, I'd point to not only the non figured maple. The spruce top isn't the best spruce I've ever seen. Also, the color and shading, typical of that era, aren't among Gibson's most attractive ones. But, those are only aesthetics and subject to personal tastes. The spruce top might concern me if I was considering the guitar for unplugged acoustic tonal properties. I'd be looking for a much tighter grain (more grain lines per inch). But, with parallel tone bars, two inset pups and 4 control knobs . . it won't matter in the least, when plugged in and run through an amp. Those aesthetics will have zero effect on whether or not this guitar will be a great one, a mediocre one, or a poor one.
I guess the question is, what are you investing in? Because, if you're looking for a great instrument that will serve you well . . and look great on you as you perform with it professionally . . . and one that you won't have to take a hair cut when you sell it . . . this my well be a great investment . . for you, Jack Zucker. But, this isn't the kind of a guitar that you'll be able to sell for a huge profit in 6 months if you don't bond with it. If that were the case, Steve Swan Guitars would have it listed for $5,500. If this guitar doesn't work out for you . . it shouldn't be a problem getting your $5,500 back.
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+1 Patric2
Jazzingly
Kris
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I'm talking to Patrick when it comes time for my next guitar purchase.
The man knows his stuff.
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Another thing to look for might be a used Campellone that has the kind of setup you want.
They are built very much in the same school as the Gibson and the Heritage.
The resale price won't vary much coming or going - more expensive than a used Heritage, but less expensive than a used Gibson.
Mark's options are typically quite straightforward, too:
- 1 3/4" or 1 11/16" nut
- 24 1/2", 25" or 25 1/2" scale
- 2 1/4" or 3" rims
- 16" or 17" body
- various levels of fizz on what is essentially the same guitar
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i searched ebay, gbase and reverb and didn't find a single campellone with set-in pickups. Everything was floaters. Plus they're going for $4k+
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Jack you sound great on your es-175...
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And, yes, more expensive than Heritage, less expensive than Gibson. Originally Posted by jzucker
They are excellent guitars - I've played a bunch of them over the years (and play an acoustic 17").
I've seen a few with single set-in neck pickups.Last edited by Hammertone; 04-05-2015 at 01:16 PM.
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