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Oh wow. That is interesting too. Some day I will have to take off the cover and check out the T's. I am interested but not interested enough to deal with soldering to find out.
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03-26-2017 10:19 AM
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so what's under the bridge? if you don't like it all that much or want to get different sounds out of it, you have a few options, provided you're willing to do stuff to it. you can simply swap the magnet or have something made that'll be aged to correspond with your fancy vintage neck pup.
for example, when i had pups made for my byrdland, i went with similar a4 magnet pups but had the neck made with fewer winds and the bridge made with more winds, to give them different voices. it isn't bad but i sort of wish that maybe i swapped the bridge magnet also, as i don't use it that much. i do use the middle position, though, and fiddle with the knobs a lot.
and these days, you can age both the cover and the magnet and evoke any era of pickup, from the 50s until now. and lots of makers split hairs with pafs, too, so there are several flavors of that.
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I don't have a mirror that I can get in there to check and I don't want to unscrew there until the cracks are fixed so it will have to be a mystery for now.
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What sacrilege! What do you do to upgrade the King of jazz guitars???
The story is: it's a 1981, I bought it used. With the previous owner, the pick guard off-gassed and ruined the finish on the gold p/up covers. New covers? that would be nice. But I also want a sweeter 60's Wes M tone. This guitar has a BIG tone, maybe too mid-rangey for me. I am very enamored with P90 tones in a hollow body. So... a H/B'er that sounds like a P90, or at least a 60's toned H/ber, with Gold covers.
I replaced the missing p/guard with suitable but not altogether L5 looking one. It looks more like a 335 guard with triple binding, not bad, but I believe this guitar deserves better.
It has a Tune-O-Matic bridge on a wooden base, but it's not original. The bridge sits about a half-inch off of the base, on the posts. Is this a bad thing?
Other than these small quirks, it is a wonderful instrument, tuneful and a piece of musical art, a Tobacco Burst - sometimes I just stare at it, hard to believe I own it.
Thoughts and suggestions? I know, I know, pictures are forthcoming.
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Lower the pickups so they are brighter, and have better dynamic range. Sounds like you want lower output, possibly unpotted humbuckers. I would not consider any other type of pickup other than a PAF style to be an upgrade in an L-5CES.
Invest in a proper replacement guard. Then have a new ebony bridge made and fitted to the top. Those would be my suggestions... pending photos of course. Maybe the bridge is actually fine. The post height sounds okay.
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Guitars aren't sacred, they're tools, even L5's.
I have an early 90's that also outgassed. I removed the pick guard and never replaced it - it looks better without one IMO and I've never needed a pick guard anyway. I don't care about the lost gold on the covers either - PUPs still work fine and the tone is great.
As for my only upgrade, and it's a big one, I replaced the original too skinny neck with a manly 1 3/4" wide one. Now it feels better and I play better on it which is the only point of doing anything to an instrument.
The resale value is forever damaged, but the guitar is far better now than when I bought it IMO...and that's the only one that counts.
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Just curious, how does 1 replace an L5 neck? Is that where you purposely break it from the headstock?
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Very pretty, I like the dark sunbursts of that period, such as found on the Kalamazoo Award. The bridge looks original, or at least "vintage correct." Not something I'd touch. Guitar looks good without the pickguard, too. I dunno... It doesn't look like it needs anything! Maybe swap out the pots for proper 500k ones? They are probably the 100k and 300k units of that era, which will muffle the tone a bit. Also, the fretless wonder frets of that period can make the tone less articulate than taller jumbos. Might want to consider that as well.
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1/2 inch is slightly high, but not what I would consider out of limits. I don't think I would replace it just for that, but of course it isn't my guitar.
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Thanks rp, you are reading my thoughts. I will try adjusting the p/ups, and the frets do bother me a bit, but...that's a very pricey change to make. $350.00 in NYC. The bridge was taken off of another Gibson arch top, in Guitar Center, where thieves had taken the original, as it hung on the wall in the store!
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Pots! I never thought about that , even tho I had a LP Custom with garbage 300K pots that self destructed, and replacement 500K pots woke that guitar up!
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The pickguard of my super 400 also gassed out and corroded the pickup covers in real time. It was noticeable within a week or so. Hence I had the pickguard replaced with an ebony one made by a luthier. I think it looks better and it solved the problem. I kept the original parts .... but these old tortoise pickguard are evil and I wonder who would put them on.
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A few thoughts:
If the Pickups are original to the guitar, they are probably Shaw Pickups which are very well regarded. An adjustment is probably all you need there.
Get new frets. the low frets of that era rob you of articulation (and speed). $350 will get you years of enjoyment out of that guitar and the guitar is worthy of new frets (New frets are routine maintenance on an old guitar. Would you drive a 1981 Trans Am that needed new tires on a long road trip?)
Check the bottom of the bridge. Is it a genuine Gibson TOM? The Asian made units (like those found on Epiphones) are terrible tone wise. Better Yet, get a good Ebony saddle to add a "woody" sound.
Get an L-5 Pickguard. Allparts makes them and they are not that expensive.
If you do not know what you are doing, have a good pro do a setup for you.
Treat that L-5 right and she will treat you right in return.
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$350 for new frets isn't all that expensive today, especially for NYC. Ask Roger Borys in Hoboken, N.J. if he has the time. Roger does great work. Phil D'Angelo of Fairlawn, NJ, comes highly recommended.
I'd go for something meaty like 47104, 55095 or 50100. The difference good frets and fretwork make...It is like getting a new guitar.
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I'd drop the pickups, as rp recommends, and adjust the pole pieces. You may have to raise the bass side of the pickup to increase the bass sensitivity.
You may have to experiment with string gauge. Perhaps a coarser gauged E2, B3, e4 may beef up the treble and bass for you.
Man, I love the dark sunburst of that era. Love the "roulette wheel" recurve. After 37 years, she deserves new frets and a levelling of the fretboard while you are at it to take out any minor warping or twisting in the neck. I would put that ahead of splurging on a pickguard. For that, use a Kling On protective scratch-sheet that classical cats use on their guitars.
I like the Jescar EVO Gold FW9655 or FW55090 from LMII.
MusicNomad has some metal polish that takes off the green crud on your pickups. It also takes off the goldplating. Your choice. Or you could have goldplated housings from places Throback that cater for the vintage correct crowd.
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I have to add a third voice to idea of a refret. Like SS and Jabs have said, I would put that at the top of the list. You’ll be happy you did. The guitar will have so much more clarity and be much more of a joy to play.
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That's a cool guitar. Were it mine ... I'd take it to Rob Engel in Stratford CT for frets. He does excellent work, highly recommended. As far as p/us, I'd find new Humbuckers that sound better. And look for a P90 hollowbody that does just what you want in that tonal range.
It's such a personal thing. I've come to appreciate P90s more and more in hollowbodies, especially in thinner guitars (ES-225, Heritage 525 for example), or deeper but not quite L5 depth models. Meanwhile, my teacher plays the sweetest sounding L5. I get to hear it a lot, would love to own that guitar. His p/us are replacements (Fralin). Just my taste, but I'm not sure that guitar could sound better with other p/us.
MD
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To break it from the headstock would free the headstock, but not the rest of the neck. One would have a headless L5 without tuners...or strings.
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Instead, I sent it to National Guitar Repair (??) who in turn shopped it out to a skilled luthier (Mark Lacy?) who did a marvelous job - can't really remember as this was 25 years ago.
The neck looks identical to a regular L5 neck with same inlay and shape, with the sole exception it's slightly wider than 1.75" at the nut.
I've done this to two archtops: the L5 and a custom blonde archie - both can be seen on my youtube channel.
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+1 on pu height adjustment...10 minutes of fiddling with a screwdriver, and it definitely changes it. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
Maybe consider LaBella TapeWound strings....they seem to have a mellow, more woody sound...less "in your face"....there are youtube clips. (Thumb v. pick is big difference here.) (There is a YT by Mason Razavi with an L4-CES with tapewounds which interests me, as I was thinking of putting black tapes on my L4-CES....the L4 sound is kind of a "junior" L5 sound....not as deep and rich, but in same general neighborhood.)
Also, have you tried turning down guitar vol. and tone controls....like to maybe 4 on vol? I read about this on a post here re: Grant Green's sound and it seems to give more dynamic range tonally (i.e. more highs and lows, a little more acoustic-y sound). I think an archtop with tone and vol. controls wide open starts to sound more like a semi...more 335-ish....which to me, is a little less sweet and more mid-rangey.
Anyway, good luck. It's a nice "problem" to have.
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Yes, nice problems to have, but the goal here is to make it sound the best it can, and please my demanding ears! Hence the questions.
I know quite a bit about set-ups, have worked on many a guitar, and have dressed frets. But have had re-fretting done by the experts.
I know the benefits of re-fretting, and how they can change the character of a guitar, maybe a last resort.
Shaw pickups??? It is a 1981 Gibson. (Don't start talking about the volute - I like it) My guitar teacher raved about it, saying I had "super hum buckers". I told him I didn't think so, maybe he was referring to the desirability of the Shaws?
Maybe my p/ups are too hi-wind? What about Seth Lover p/ups as replacements?
I love the P90 sound in my Casino. It does sound woodier and expressive with the guitar volume turned down Goldenweave, but I do want a brighter and vocal tone with the L5. Woodiness it has.
Thanks guys, a lot of good sharing here.
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Headless? So specifically, how is a new "neck" attached to the existing L5 headstock without breaking the headstock away from the neck to be replaced? A Gibson 5 piece neck and headstock are a connected unit of wood correct? Originally Posted by P4guitar
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If you put P90s in your L5 you will certainly have a unique L5 sound. If you do it please post some sound samples - I can’t even imagine anything other than the classic L5 sound.
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It's just like replacing the neck on a Tele or Strat...almost because solid bodies are typically bolt on and box guitars are typically mounted in a neck block. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
The entire neck (headstock and all) is removed then a new neck put on. The new neck has a new headstock that can be a copy of the old one or something completely different - I went both ways with an exact copy for my L5 and a brand new headstock design for my custom blonde.
For archtops the neck is glued into a neck block inside the neck end of the body. The tech steams out the old neck and inserts a new neck.
See: Acoustic Guitar Neck Block | stewmac.com
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Pickup wise you might want to consider the humbucker sized P90's from Pete Biltoft or Jason Lollar, or others.
Some P90's can sound darkish. The "hybrid" P 90 I have from Biltoft has single coil character...more responsive....more highs and lows...kind of 1/2 way between most humbuckers and the darker P90's.
I put one in a lawsuit 175, and it really opened up the guitar...the old humbucker sounded like a wet blanket. One of the members here has some very instructive pu comparison clips on YT under Fred Archtop...Charlie Christians, p90's and others.
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Hi there. If what you want is a sweet Wes tone i wouldnt mess changing pickups.
I played side by side the two pickup version and the one pickup and difference is too big.
Guitar gets brighter but it is a much sweeter brightness than adding eq to an l-5ces. The guitar sounds live and uncompressed. Of course it feedback more.
You can experiment about it by unscrewing the bridge pickup and realising that weight from the top.
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