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I buy a lot of Archtops and I have seen nearly every trick, scam, dog etc..
The reality is the second hand market is full of (generally) two types of guitars. Ones people want to sell for genuine reasons and ones people want to sell because they are dogs (the guitars that is). Sure people can have a genuine reason and have a dog, they are the 'Don't know dont care type' as in, they play guitar but know little about them.
If your lucky and get a genuine one, great. If your unlucky and get a dog what do you do?
Well ebay and paypal are great options that offer the buyer a lot of protection (to the annoyance of sellers). What most people don't realise is, if your selling a guitar on Ebay it has to be in working order unless stated. So if you buy a guitar where the neck is shot or the truss rod is not working (as it should), then you can open a case as the guitar is technically, not function/working correctly.
My latest example falls in the cracks. I bought an Ibanez Gb30 off ebay last week for a very good price £600. I went up to the sellers address as he was close enough (and it saved couriers etc). I inspected the guitar the best I could (which isn't always easy) but I could see that there was a lot of relief in the neck. Now if I had had the guitar sent it would be fine, it would have arrived, I would have been able to see the neck was bowing and been able to adjust it. Unfortunately at the time I was picking the guitar up I could not do this, so I thought I would do it when I got home. I have always had joy with earlier Ibanez necks, they are generally the best off the shelf ones you can get; very stable.
When I got home I whipped off the truss rod cover, put the spanner on to discover, the truss rod was already FULY tightened. This is with action of about 3mm on the 12th with 12's. As you can see thats a huge action and obviously so, to compensate for the necks bowing (at both ends). After closer inspection (and with help from a fellow member), it appears the neck is not only bowing but twisted too and the truss rod is doing nothing.
So the next day I contacted the seller and said I wanted to return it and that the guitar was not fit for sale or purpose. Now under Ebay and paypal I should have a very strong case. The seller has already claimed the neck was straight in reply (which is worrying as it can shows me that he might have known it was a dog) so it will have to come down to Ebay/Paypal to resolve.
I'm confident I will get my money back because the guitar fails to meet the basic steps for selling on ebay "Guitar must be fully functional and in working condition" Well the GB30 is not that. It cant be set-up, if it could, you wouldn't be able to change the strings and would be forced to play with one action type.
To be fair I wished I'd had it sent because then it would make things much easier and I wouldn't be out of pocket. Always harder fighting a case when you picked the guitar up in person but that doesn't mean you don't have a case.
Anyway heres some pics of the guitar. Its a real shame cause she sounds really good, much more resonant and dynamic compared to say a Gibson HR FIII and lighter and more open than a typical 335. And for £600!!
I cant sell it on because of the issues (although I could hope to sell it to a noob and make a few hundred £'s in the process but that would be highly unethical). I cant play it because I like low action, so it has to go back.
Another thing worth noting, is that the finish on this model is not up to the usual Japanese standards. The logo in the headstock is badly filled and the GB logo a little lumpy. The wood for the neck is obviously not good and in general it feels like quite a budget model. I'm not 100% sure but I think the GB30 was a more affordable model but still, its a bit of a slack one for Ibanez's standards.
So yes at best I could have flipped this for £300 profit, or kept it and played it as a cheap good guitar, free up some money in some of the others. Turns out neither of those things are going to happen and i'm in a protracted battle to get my money back.
Dreams can turn to nightmares real fast.
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02-10-2015 10:41 AM
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Well, hope it works out for you.
But I'm not clear - if the seller said the neck was straight, but you could see it was badly up-bowed, why did you take it? Not to be wise after the event, but the neck & truss rod is the first thing I look at, and if it's bowed I ask the seller if he minds if I apply a truss rod wrench. On one occasion I rejected a L5CES for this very reason - it couldn't be straightened.
If you really want to keep this guitar, or if you can't get your money back, you could try the trick of adding suitably shaped washers in front of the truss rod nut, and re-tightening. According to Dan Erlewine, this sometimes works
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Did you know you would be picking it up in person? If so I would not have paid unit I checked it out there. Anyway, I hope you can get your refund, I would think you will.
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If you don't get some satisfaction from the seller you could consider having a knowledgable luthier heat the neck. Sometimes,not always,it may bring her into playability.That might help the relief but you'd need more help on the twisting. She sure is a pretty guitar.Good luck with the seller.
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Originally Posted by Archtop Guy
Thanks but i've already got a second opinion on it and it wasn't good news.
Not worth it in the end.
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You have valid points but heres what I've found. Originally Posted by Franz 1997
I used to take a little took box with me whenever I bought a guitar and about 75% of the time people would refuse to let me 'fiddle' with their guitar in anyway. People dont like it when you start pulling out tools lol
Normally necks like this would straighten up under truss rod adjustment so yeh, there is the lesson. The one time you dont take your tools, the one time you assume the truss rod is working, is the one time you'll end up like this.
Also sometimes its not possible to check the rod due to the situation ir not having the right tool to adjust it.
Whats more annoying is the amount of times I turn guitars down due to truss rods not working.
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unfortunate, but if you inspected it in person and left w/it, to me that sounds like a done deal unless you made other arrangements w/the seller before you walked out the door.
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I'd try adding washers to get some tension on the rod. Nothing to lose but a few pennies for some washers.
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Arch, That is one of the best laid out articles I've seen. I will continue to trust, but I am gambling for sure..
I have purchased a lot of Guitars on Ebay and have luckily, never had a problem. But lately, as I feel my luck running out, I've been buying guitars used from Guitar Center, Musicians Friend or SamAsh. Their money back Guarantee insures me that they will take back what I don't like - or - what I think is defective. And I've found some gems, and only 1 dog. And with Guitar Center, you can buy from a store in California and return it to a store in New York. Thier prices on used gear are very fair.
Thanks Again,
Joe DLast edited by Max405; 02-10-2015 at 06:29 PM.
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The washers trick doesn't always work, but it's a logical approach.
I got a guitar off of eBay. Instead of paying for shipping through PayPal, I sent the seller a FedEx label.
He shipped the guitar to me. It had cosmetic issues that he did not disclose, and they were substantial. I documented everything very well and sent it to PayPal.
They wouldn't side with me because they said I picked it up locally. What they meant was I supplied the shipping label, which means I accept the condition the guitar arrives in. I pressed and pressed on that point. Then the truth came out. When you pay for shipping through PayPal, some of the money is "insurance" for a good outcome. I denied them that money by using my company's shipping account.
They eventually confiscated $200 from his PP account to remedy the damages, but it was a lot of work and grief.
I have not supplied a shipping label again. Lesson learned.
BTW, that's a beautiful GB30. I hope that works out for you.
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WOW Archtop what a bummer. Yes that neck has enough relief to shoot a arrow with it. Hope you get this worked out. Hate seeing anyone getting screwed on a axe. Been there many a time myshelf. Very bitter pill to swallow. Yes try soaking the fretboard with lemon or mineral oil and removing the trussrod nut and adding a washer or 2 and greasing the trussrod threads. Worth a shot. Sorry bro !
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Just to reply to all, instead of individually
@Wintermon: You are right in some cases but I feel in this case, whether or not I had picked it up or had it delivered, the issue would still exist and the seller has broken ebay policies not me. If you sell a guitar that is not fit for purpose, you have gone against ebay policies. I can also prove that the condition could not have been caused by me.
That gives me the stronger position.
@Drs: Yeh its not a lack of thread issue, its a bad wood issue. If I tightened the rod any more, it will snap.
@Joe: Seems like a reasonable way to do things although there are some real deals to be had on Ebay, plus I live in the UK, so no GC (thank god? lol).
Thanks a lot for your comments, really appreciated
Marty: Yeh that sounds like something I would have avoided doing personally. Always get the seller to load the risk. if it turns up good, then good. If not, then your still good (ish).
If I had to keep it (hopefully not) then i will probably get the fingerboard taken off and some carbon fibre added to control the neck. Wont be able to do too much with relief but at least that bit of wood will be brought to heel.
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Sorry about that. To date, I have had good experiences buying second-hand guitars. The only bowed, twisted neck I have dealt with was a brand new Gold Tone banjo that a friend just purchased. It was obviously in need of being sent back.
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Just got confirmation from Ebay UK, seller accepts and its going back.
Although i'm still kinda sad abut it all. Would have love to keep it. Its actually a really good little guitar. if anyone gets the chance to pick one up, heres my advice.
CHECK THE NECK!
Otherwise go for it. Really good semi with a very open and punchy tone, almost airy. Just don't $2000 and up for one. They are basic, they are a more budget model and in real value terms, should be about $1000-1500Last edited by Archie; 02-11-2015 at 08:02 AM.
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Nice to hear this happy ending for you !
Now, all Ibby GB30 amateurs beware !
One with twisted and bowed neck is about to be for sale again !
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Originally Posted by 339 in june
Nice to hear this happy ending for you !
Now, all Ibby GB30 amateurs beware !
One with twisted and bowed neck is about to be for sale again !
Yes worrying isn't it. I suspect the seller will put it straight back on ebay. I will then contact ebay and tell them, at which point, they will do absolutely nothing, as usual.
I will keep the serial number for reference. In fact I will post it here.
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Too bad it didn't work out because it's an attractive instrument that's no doubt easy to play.
As to experiences buying used, I've been very fortunate that everything has gone about as well as I could have hoped. In the cases where the guitar wasn't up to snuff, the sellers have never been wary of returns.
As a matter of fact, I recently had an experience where I purchased a used Eastman 803 and the guitar arrived with its top smashed in. The guitar had been poorly packed with minimal cushioning in and around the case which led to crushing pressure to bend the case in driving the bridge down into the carved top. It was a real shame that the guitar was destroyed, but the seller didn't hesitate to make things right. In that case, I had the advantage of having had the instrument shipped to a UPS Store rather than my home, so the store manager could vouch for me if there had been any issues concerning the instrument's condition.
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I bought a Griffin PowerMate on ebay. Functions ok, but the indicator light doesn't work, which is important if you plan to use more than one. Was listed as everything working perfectly. So the guy writes back, "That's funny, it worked for me." <yea right..> "If you want to send it back to me I'll refund your money." What's annoying is that it's ending up to be a lot of wasted time that I don't have with this thing and now I need to get another one anyway. You would think for $25 he would just refund my money and say done.
Last edited by Woody Sound; 02-11-2015 at 10:21 AM.
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my only bad second hand purchase was through a very famous online archtop shop a few years back
cost me hundreds and hundreds in visa fees and shipping (total around 700)
a guitar described as 'flawless' and 'mint' etc. had binding coming away from the body and loads of nicks and dings
absurdly the seller genuinely tried to maintain that it was all travel damage and the guitar left him in near mint condition - this was as obviously false as anything could be (you could tell the guitar had been used hard and suffered all manner of minor damage - and the binding problem was just not a travel type issue at all).
i much prefer to deal with genuine players rather than people who try to make money out of selling guitars
they tend to have genuine reasons for parting with instruments - and very often - they have no interest in ripping you off whatsoever
i just lowered the price of my amazing second hand guitar by 500 bucks!
what a market!
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Glad things worked out for you Archtop. Now you can have some more fun searching for another one.
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I know it's tough to really inspect a used guitar at the seller's home. Sometimes you win & sometimes you lose. I hope you find another guitar in better shape!
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ATH; Just out of curiousity, if you were within driving distance of picking this guitar up in person . . why would you not visit with the guitar before committing the money to eBay or pay pal?
Old Guitar Player; gotta disagree with you on difficulties in inspecting a guitar in a seller's home . . or anywhere else for that matter. If I see a guitar with a major bow in the neck and the seller won't allow me to remove the truss rod cover to see if the truss rod is functional . . I leave without the guitar and with my money in my pocket. I once negotiated a deal with a private seller for a 1960 strat. It was big bucks, even back then. I told him I would need to disassemble the guitar for inspection of 100% originality. He promptly told me there was no way he was going to let me disassemble his 1960 strat. Ok . . that's reasonable. I met him at my guitar tech's shop and he allowed the tech to disassemble the guitar. It was 100% original and all there.
When the buyer is holding the cash and is willing to pay the amount the seller wants for the guitar . . the buyer is the boss. No exceptions!!
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
Tbh Patrick what your saying is right but then you have to allow for variables.
Its complicated. When I say the guy was close, he was an hour and a half drive, thats a 3 hour round trip, thats £50 in fuel (or to you $80?). Why would I spend that to buy a guitar that I will go back a few days later to pick up (again spending $80). Thats not financially viable and just doenst work in practice.
The trick is, i should have had it sent but again I go back to that point of experience. Normally I would have tools with me, normally I would have a Gibson wrench to adjust the rod, normally...however my experience with 80's Ibanez is that the necks are excellent, so I was expecting it to be good (I've had a lot of 80's Ibanez) and the one time you rely on the usually reliable, you get let down.
In the end though, I knew in the back of my mind that if the neck wouldn't work, then I could send it back, so I took the risk of waisting a couple hours.
You know it was only a few months ago I was testing the truss rod on an old epi 3 hours away. That truss rod wouldn't work so I declined it.
In regards to peoples homes and testing stuff, yeh your right if a guitar has 11 gauge strings on, with too much relief, its generally a bad sign. Normally you walk away.
I gues on this one I just expected too much from the old faithful ibanez artist and got burnt for it.
And it will happen again. You can never really fully get it right 100% of the time, theres too many variables, human error, lack of a good situation, lack of knowledge about what can be achieved through a good tech (which are hard to find here).
Just as long as you keep the cards in your hand (stay protected in whatever way you can) the mistakes you make should be undoable. As they are in this example.
Don't forget Patrick Im still young, still got a lot to learn and came to guitars as a player, not a tech. I have no training in Guitars except the experience of me dealing with them. Its an on going process of learning (yes usually the hard way) but its interesting and as long as I remain ethical and dont try to pass dogs on, then I'm happy to continue.
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Don't be too put off Groyniad there are a lot of great dealers out there (like me although Im more an enthusiast), who would rather cut their right hand off (yeh then you cant play either instrument ;-) then sell someone something that wasn't right or working properly. Some people genuinely like to treat others as they would themselves. Originally Posted by Groyniad
As my friend would put it, I'm a tart with a heart.
So not all dealers/collectors are bad. Granted though there are many sociopathic types out there who view you as a target to dump their shit on. If only they had an arrow above their head pointing own at them with a neon sign flashing *Asshole*
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I guess I am not as paranoid as you are. I have bought dozens of used guitars without a problem. I don't need to bring tools to the seller's shop or home and take apart a guitar to determine it's worthiness. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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