Charlie Christian PU vs Bendetto A6

[korey-craft]

Can anyone give me a quick idea of what's what in regards to these two? Big early Burrell fan, trying to capture that sound, sadly I'm not playing with a big jazz box, using a Montreal premier. I have the a6 in there now and it's fantastic. Just wondering if it's worth the switch. Can't find any semi hollow charlie Christian videos on the YouTube either. Anyone?

[D.G.]

I can tell you first off that any CC pup is gonna buzz, about on par with a p90 or maybe slightly more. Also, if you're picky about string balance (like I am) you're unlikely to be able to balance a CC in the same way as you can an adjustable pole pickup.

All of which may or may not be relevant to you

[korey-craft]

Haha I usually don't adjust poles. The buzzing tho. Something to think about. Tonally tho?

[Steve Z]

Two different critters completely...

CC pup -> single blade
Benedetto A6 -> humbucker

I'd stick with the A6, but that's me. The next post may have a different opinion

[hanktx]

As was already pointed out, those are two very different pickups.

Plenty of guys use a CC in the neck position on a tele and sound great. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

But also keep in mind that a CC is a comparatively low output pickup. It may need some help if you are looking for volume or to drive some amps.

[pubylakeg]

I have a UK made CC-pickup fitted to a Loar LH-600.

I'd say fundamentally that Steve Z's post is the most basic point of reference. Humbucker vs. single coil.

I'm not familiar with the A6 but it's marketing pitch would suggest it's a PAF type p/up.

So, you need to decide if you want the sound of the late 30's to mid 50's or if you want the 60's post Wes tone.

The CC pickup is a curious beast. Despite the fact about Burrell using one, (which I'm not disputing) personally I don't identify KB's tone with the CC. P90's yes but not the CC.

More specifically, the tone the CC produces, is very much determined by the height you set it at, and the technique of the player. I'm also going to theorize that the guitar it's fitted to (ie 16"/17"/ply/spruce top) will play a huge difference in how it sounds as well. To illustrate this, have a close listen to some early Jimmy Raney, eg' "A", "Meets Bob Brookmeyer" or "Early Stan" and then some Rene Thomas eg. "Guitar Groove" or "Chet Is Back". There's a huge difference in their tones, even though they're both using the ES-150/EH-150 combination. I can state without hesitation that JR had his p/up set lower than Rene.

In my experience, the CC does pick up more noise than a h/bucker, but it's not as extreme as some might claim, certainly not to the point of rendering the p/up unviable. The p/up can be grounded to the tailpiece to minimize noise. It's no worse than a Fender.

Regarding string balance, I have the model with the notch under the B string. I use Galli Jazz Flatwound 13-56 and have no problems with balance. I tilt the bass side slightly further away from the strings than the treble, to tame the bass a little. However, I can't predict how it would behave if fitted to a different guitar.

Some other considerations, the UK made CC-pickup is the most accurate of the re-issues. The Lollar and Biltoft models are built differently. I would suggest, that accuracy, may play a major part in how the p/up sounds. Some people who have played vintage era CC models are sometimes taken aback by the tone of the modern reissue, but don't factor for aging of magnets on vintage models. When you encounter one at first, it does take considerable time to adjust your ear to it. It's not a "smoky, dark" jazz tone. It's very bright, and also puts out a lot of bass, so you need to spend time learning how to EQ your amp, and also trying out different p/up heights etc. However, once you start getting "in the zone" ...wow. I would re-iterate though, this is a bright sounding p/up.

Personally, I had grown bored of h/buckers. I'm not by inclination a tone freak, but having listened to a lot of the 40's/early 50's era players, I decided that I had to try a CC out, and I'm so glad I did. This is the sound.

I would be a lot less inspired without it. I can't recommend one highly enough, but I did want an authentic vintage Jazz tone, so for me it's perfect.

[Mark M.]

I have a Bravo with A6 pickups & love them. However, I have always wondered what it would be like if I had the coil tap option like some Bravos have. I don't mean to hijack the thread, and I think this point might be relevant to the OP. How difficult would it be to install a coil tap and have the option for single coil AND humbucker with the same pickup?

[pubylakeg]

Can't find any semi hollow charlie Christian videos on the YouTube either. Anyone?

This one's a bit noisy unfortunately,

The records by C Christian, Oscar Moore, Slim Gaillard, Tiny Grimes, Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel, Hank Garland, & Rene Thomas would probably give you a better idea of how it sounds though.

[goshawk]

Here's Jack Zucker playing a Painter laminate with a Vintage Vibe CC p'up

[Bebop Tom]

That is the only clip where I did not like the tone. Strings sound too thin and plinky.

[ESCC]

I have a UK made CC-pickup fitted to a Loar LH-600.

I'd say fundamentally that Steve Z's post is the most basic point of reference. Humbucker vs. single coil.

Now, I'm not familiar with the A6 but it's marketing pitch would suggest it's a PAF type p/up.

So, you need to decide if you want the sound of the late 30's to mid 50's or if you want the 60's post Wes tone.

The CC pickup is a curious beast. Despite the fact about Burrell using one, (which I'm not disputing) personally I don't identify KB's tone with the CC. P90's yes but not the CC.

More specifically, the tone the CC produces, is very much determined by the height you set it at, and the technique of the player. I'm also going to theorize that the guitar it's fitted to (ie 16"/17"/ply/spruce top) will play a huge difference in how it sounds as well. To illustrate this, have a close listen to some early Jimmy Raney, eg' "A", "Meets Bob Brookmeyer" or "Early Stan" and then some Rene Thomas eg. "Guitar Groove" or "Chet Is Back". There's a huge difference in their tones, even though they're both using the ES-150/EH-150 combination. I can state without hesitation that JR had his p/up set lower than Rene.

In my experience, the CC does pick up more noise than a h/bucker, but it's not as extreme as some might claim, certainly not to the point of rendering the p/up unviable. The p/up can be grounded to the tailpiece to minimize noise. It's no worse than a Fender.

Regarding string balance, I have the model with the notch under the B string. I use Galli Jazz Flatwound 13-56 and have no problems with balance. I tilt the bass side slightly further away from the strings than the treble, to tame the bass a little. However, I can't predict how it would behave if fitted to a different guitar.

Some other considerations, the UK made CC-pickup is the most accurate of the re-issues. The Lollar and Biltoft models are built differently. I would suggest, that accuracy, may play a major part in how the p/up sounds. Some people who have played vintage era CC models are sometimes taken aback by the tone of the modern reissue, but don't factor for aging of magnets on vintage models. When you encounter one at first, it does take considerable time to adjust your ear to it. It's not a "smoky, dark" jazz tone. It's very bright, and also puts out a lot of bass, so you need to spend time learning how to EQ your amp, and also trying out different p/up heights etc. However, once you start getting "in the zone" ...wow. I would re-iterate though, this is a bright sounding p/up.

Personally, I had grown bored of h/buckers. I'm not by inclination a tone freak, but having listened to a lot of the 40's/early 50's era players, I decided that I had to try a CC out, and I'm so glad I did. This is the sound.

Now, I would be a lot less inspired without it. I can't recommend one highly enough, but I did want an authentic vintage Jazz tone, so for me it's perfect.

I own an ES175CC, I concur with pubylakeg assessment of the CC. The clip of the Painter with the CC does not sound consistent to the tone and characteristics of the original CCs, in my opinion. I too associate Kenny Burrell's tone with P90s and Humbuckers slightly overdriving a tube amp.

[ingeneri]

I own an ES175CC, I concur with pubylakeg assessment of the CC. The clip of the Painter with the CC does not sound consistent to the tone and characteristics of the original CCs, in my opinion. I too associate Kenny Burrell's tone with P90s and Humbuckers slightly overdriving a tube amp.

Nice thread and very informative about a pickup few of us have had the chance to try. How do you think the slightly overdriven CC sound of Christian or early '60s Burrell compares with P90s?

How do you adjust height on a CC pickup? Do you ascribe this to the differnece between a Kessel/Tal/Raney clean sound and Christian/Moore/Burell? Or is that more a function of volume and the different amps?

[Para]

I fitted a Lollar CC, I filed a slot under the B string and tilted the pickup down slightly on the bass side it is a great sound good string balance, nice punchy mids and clear ringing trebles no buzzing or feedback at all.

[pubylakeg]

Nice thread and very informative about a pickup few of us have had the chance to try. How do you think the slightly overdriven CC sound of Christian or early '60s Burrell compares with P90s?

How do you adjust height on a CC pickup? Do you ascribe this to the differnece between a Kessel/Tal/Raney clean sound and Christian/Moore/Burell? Or is that more a function of volume and the different amps?

The first point about a slightly overdriven sound is difficult to quantify. But to me there is a difference in the pick attack, and the sort of width to the tone when comparing a cc and a p90. It's difficult to explain.However the CC and P90 being single coil are closer to each other than a h/bucker.

Regarding height adjustment on the CC, there are 2 screws located closer to the pickup, these adjust height on either side of the pickup, just like, say, the neck pickup on a tele. The single screw placed closer to the bridge seems to move the entire p/up through an arc. As you rotate the screw the front side of the pickup, nearest the fretboard, raises towards the strings. The height of the p/up wouldn't, in itself, determine whether the amp is run into overdrive though. That's down to amp setting.

Regarding the different tones associated with the above players, well, technique, volume, amp and the players taste are all contributing factors, but as far as Christian and Raney are concerned, I'm pretty certain that they had the p/up set low, as their tones both display the more diffuse sound, with less pick noise.

As far as I can see Tal's p/up was the ES-250 type ie with the serrated blade.



Something that I'm still trying to work out is the precise distance between Tal and Barney's p/ups to the end of the fretboard, It seems that ES-350 p/up spacing specs varied over the years.

Compare it to Barney's (who used roundwounds), it may also give some insight into the difference between their tones out of their ES-350's.

[Phil in London]

I can add to the discussion with this late 70s ES175CC. The pickup is woody and sings, leaving a lot of acoustic quality to the tone. I got the guitar from Germany very recently, and it is literally in mint condition. Wonderful axe, great pickup, highly recommended.

[oldane]

That is the only clip where I did not like the tone. Strings sound too thin and plinky.

That's more the setup and amp settings than the PU. Jack Z., who plays, prefers a fairly bright tone. I have a Painter P-350 with a Biltoft HCC like the one Jack plays in the clip. It's stringes differently and is quite different in sound. The Biltoft PUs come with two sets of interchangable magnets of the buyers own choice. One can chose between Alnico II, III, V as well as ceramic magnets (Increasing magnet strength, II being the weakest, ceramic the strongest) which also influences the sound. Many - me too - prefer Alnico II magnets for a sweet, mellow tone, very well suited to jazz. With stronger magnets, the PU will be hotter and brighter. The question is, however, if the difference is so big it can't be compensated by adjustment to the EQ settings.

As for KBs sound, he has used HBs for the most of his carreer. Early on he used a 175 with P90s. Later he got a L5 with a CC. He also had a D'Angelico with a D'Armond 1100. And in many decades, he has used his faithful Super400 with HBs. He had Bob Benedetto and later Heritage build him a custom guitar, but I don't know if he has recorded with them. He also seems to have changed his preferences for strings through the years. He is known for a preference for Fender Twin amps, but he has likely also used other amps if that's what was available. All in all, there are many variables influencing KBs sound. The PU may play the least role.

[ESCC]

Nice thread and very informative about a pickup few of us have had the chance to try. How do you think the slightly overdriven CC sound of Christian or early '60s Burrell compares with P90s?

How do you adjust height on a CC pickup? Do you ascribe this to the differnece between a Kessel/Tal/Raney clean sound and Christian/Moore/Burell? Or is that more a function of volume and the different amps?

ingeneri,

I was listening to Kenny Burrell recordings from 56, 57, All Day Long and All Night Long, to me it sounded very much like a Charlie Christian pickup, fairly clean not much mid-range. His recording from the 60s to me are more compressed and the amp(s) have a more "brown" tone. My experience with my P90 is that it has wider frequency, esp mid and will overdrive an amp sooner than the CC, I've always used the expression that I can make the P90s growl - - just my experience and opinion. Didn't you (don't you) play a Heritage w/P90s?