Humbucker Replacements

[Iced Tea]

Hi there

This is my first post to the forum and I'm looking for some advice if possible.

I bought a Greco 175 copy a couple of months ago and I'm very happy with it, it's an extremely well made guitar and it has really nice woody tone unplugged. To my ears, it has the quintessential es 175 sound. I recently had the frets recrowned and had it set up with flatwounds. It now plays beautifully. The problem is the stock pickups, which sound honky, the bottom end is very muddy and there isn't a nice seperation between the notes, especially when playing chords on the lower strings. I'd like to replace the stock pickups with something better. Having done some research, the choices are myriad to say the least! To be honest, I don't really have a clue as to what type of magnets should be used or whether cloth braiding is better, I just want a nice warm sound with clarity and sparkle. I have had a look at some pickups and I have narrowed it down to four choices:

Option 1 - Gibson 57 Classics

Pros: Price is reasonable, you know what you're getting and the quality should be there. Maybe one of the most authentic mass produced PAF reproductions.

Cons: Not sure if they will really be the most appropriate choice for a hollowbody guitar, maybe too hot.

Option 2 - Seymour Duncan SH1

Pros: My guitar tech recommended these, and again you know what you're getting with Seymour Duncan. I have used other Seymour Duncans and they did exactly what I wanted, even though the results weren't spectacular. Reasonably priced.

Cons: May not be the most exciting option.

Option 3 - Creamery Hollowbody Pickups

Pros: I have been in touch with Jamie, who makes these and he has been extremely helpful so far. I think he really cares about the end result. He recommended low out pickups and he seems to know his stuff. Glowing reviews.

Cons: As they are built to order, I might have to wait a month, not the end of the world I suppose. As his pickups are handwound, am I right in thinking that they are not true PAF reproductions?

Option 4 - P90s

Pros: I am veering towards this option, even though it could be problematic. I love Wes' early recordings where he was using P90s with that bell like tone and clarity. I think they sound amazing to my ears. (Of course it helps that Wes was a genius.)

Cons: As I want dog ear covers, I will need the casing to cover the routing on the original humbuckers. I know Jason Lollar makes these and I hear his P90s are very good. Could be expensive.

If anyone could offer me any advice, that would be great!

[Cunamara]

If you want the classic ES-175 sound, go with the Gibson Classic 57. It's basically the same pickup Gibson put in 'em from 1957 on. If you really want to nail that tone you'll want to source the right pots. The standard these days is 500k tone and volume pots with humbuckers with 22s for caps, but those old Gibsons used 300k pots and IIRC that caps were 22s or 33s. You can find that information online.

[robertm2000]

Another place I'd suggest would be Vintage Vibe Guitars pickups, made by Pete Biltoft. Pete Biltoft builds some of the best pickups around. When you call he answers his own phone. Pete will communicate with you until he is dead certain what you want, then he can deliver it, in custom pickups that can be had in any form factor you are looking for. When I got my Vintage Vibe pickups they were so good I sold all my electrics except the guitar that has them. Pete's pickups offer interchangeable magnets - they can be changed in a few seconds and Pete offers Alnico 2, 3 and 5, and ceramic magnets. Pete's prices are somewhat less than other boutique pickup makers too.

Vintage Vibe Guitar Pickups

[lumena]

I can make another suggestion but also with wait.

Contact sheptone.com
Beautiful pickup recreations.

Request the winding you prefer - all humbucker pickups were not the same.

Probably the one you are wanting is an AB short magnet but anything is possible.

[docbop]

I'm going through same thing I got a '99 175 in a trade and the acoustic sound is good, but plugged in so-so. The person said the pickups were original, but he had pulled them and put gold covers on and something just isn't right. So in my checking multiple times I've received the same recommendation.

Seymour Duncan pickups for price and sound. The choices are 59, Seth Lover, Pearly Gates. The 59 is inexpensive PAF like pickup, had one in a tele and it sounded good there. Seth Lover is a bit more expensive is closer to the original PAF and is the pickup used by other guitar makers. Last was the Pearly Gates it has a sound of its own the samples I heard not sure how good a Jazz pickup it would be. So I'm leaning towards the SD Seth Lover. One more that gets recommended a lot around here is the DiMarzio 36th Anniversary it is a good sound, reasonably price pickup.

I was thinking of a P90 but going with a humbucker sized one to avoid routing in case I want to go back. I listened to a lot of samples both regular and hum-canceling models. Non of the inexpensive one cut it for me. The two I like was for the regular was the Lollar it had a bit Jazzier tone to me than others. For hum-canceling the Fralin sounded best.

One last comment that will probably upset the gear fans, but I did hear it from a couple source. No need to spend a lot on humbucker pickups the regular bands sound the as-good and cost a lot less. The higher boutique pickups there is minimal if any difference in sound, but drastic difference in price. That is part of the reason for a humbucker I be sticking with Duncan. The only exception to that I heard in my listening was with P90's the low end pickup didn't sound as good.

[LtKojak]

For clarity, body, and great string separation for complex chordwork, my choice would be the Electric City Pickups RD-59 set.

I have a set in my 335, and I can't imagine anything else sounding "better" for these requirements.

HTH,

[Jim Soloway]

Before I put in new pickups I would try lowering the existing pickups further from the strings. That can often accomplish a whole lot in terms of note separation.

[rsclosson]

Also be are to check out Lindy Fralin P-92. Basically a hum canceling P-90 in a humbucker size enclosure. I've played a few and they sound great.

[Franz 1997]

Before I put in new pickups I would try lowering the existing pickups further from the strings. That can often accomplish a whole lot in terms of note separation.

I agree. Try lowering the pickups, especially on the bass side, and then raising the pole pieces towards the strings. This should give a much more detailed sound, though with less volume. It won't cost anything to try....

Some Greco pickups, depending on the vintage, sound great, with real transparency. I know it's not the same guitar, but the Greco pickups on my Super real 335 clone make 57 Classics sound muddy and dull by comparison.

[Jimmy Mack]

Yes, I have to say that 57 Classics are not the answer to every tonal quest. Not bad at all, but if you need brighter/clearer and more definition, maybe look elsewhere. They are not exactly what was used back in '57.

Talk to the builders.

[Jabberwocky]

Talk to Pete Biltoft of Vintage Vibe and tell him what you want: Vintage Vibe Guitar Pickups: Humbucker Pickups .

[yebdox]

I never liked the classic 57s, have replaced them in every guitar they showed up in, most recently my L5, which sounded a bit thin and trebly. (They sounded woofy in my 335, go figure.) After some research, I decided on a High Wind Lollar Imperial - the higher winding knocks off some of the treble, an idea I read and which was confirmed by Mr. Lollar when I spoke with him. It worked.

I don't know if that is helpful, you may have other issues. As Mr. Soloway suggested, playing with pickup height is the easiest and often most profound thing you can do, regardless of the pickup. The process is fun, though, and you usually won't lose much money, if you have to flip your failures on eBay, if you buy good stuff to start with.

I have a Burstbucker 2 I'm going to put in the L5 when I get around to it, only because I'm picky and the plating on the Imperial is wearing off, so I'm getting a new cover put on. That should be interesting.

[Para]

Lollar CC in my AF151, has a great sound punchy and clear.

[Jazz_175]

They sounded woofy in my 335, go figure.

So what did you put in your 335 or did you not change pickups at all?

[yebdox]

Originally Posted by yebdox
They sounded woofy in my 335, go figure.




So what did you put in your 335 or did you not change pickups at all?

I put van Zandt trubuckers in several years back, recently swapped the bridge for a 4 lead Burstbucker 2, with push pull pots for coil tap and series/ parallel. Still not happy with the neck Van Zandt, (though it sounds good split) but it's great for Peter Green tones now, and the Burstbucker livened things up a bit, but is grainy past 8 or 9. Might try a Lollar or WCR crossroads in the neck next, but wiring on 335s is a pain, so maybe I will have a tech do it.

[jads57]

So there are many good recomendations in the above posts, but the best I've found as far as PAF's have been Manilus Landmark neck and Fat Dianne bridge combo. Articulate, not overly hot, and best of all priced at around $100 each! You wont be dissapointed.

[mikeSF]

I always found the 57 Classics to sound unexciting, but if that is more or less what you are after, it may be the right fit for the Greco.
Pickups are unique to the instrument, so one man's Pearly Gates is another man's crapbucker.
I personally love the Kent Armstrong handwound (vermont) 12-adjustable pole PAFs, especially in a laminated 175-style guitar.
I also had good results with the Duncan Alnico Pro II humbucker (neck) - definitely check it out if you havent.
good luck!

[Iced Tea]

Thanks for all your responses so far guys, definitely given me food for thought.

In an ideal world I would like to go for P90s, does anybody have any experience of installing these?

[wildschwein]

Try setting the pole pieces like in the diagram below. This scheme was suggested in the "Guitar Electronics for Musicians" book by Donald Brosnac. I do this with all my humbuckers and it adds more detail and clarity to the sound. I actually set the pickups pretty close to the strings too. Just as side note I have a '77 Greco Les Paul which was equipped with Maxon U-1000 humbuckers and they are the most amazing PAF-style pickup I ever laid my ears on. Loads of chime and clarity. They have Alnico 8 magnets and were unpotted (before I wax potted them). They currently reside in a Flying V with out-of-phase and 1/2-out-phase reverse options plus a switchable LC network to roll off some midrange. Hard to find but they are great humbuckers. I also like Toneriders -- they're cheap and they make a few models but the Alnico II Classics are a good buy and the neck has great clarity. I'm also using some of their Generators in a semi-hollow and they're hotter but still retain a clear and nuanced top end.

[Iced Tea]

Thanks everyone for all the advice.

Choosing these pickups has been super complicated! Anyway, after much research I have decided to get some Tonerider Alnico IV classics. At the price paid, £70, it seems a great deal. I have only read good reviews of this product and at the price point it was worth it. I can't really justify spending a lot of money on something high-end with Christmas coming up!

When they're installed I'll send an update.

[Iced Tea]

Ok so I installed the Toneriders yesterday and they sound great, they did pretty much what I expected. They have removed some of the distortion and flabbiness around the bottom end and took off some of the brightness. The neck pickup sounds warmer, fuller and more transparent. Tone-wise I guess it has a flutey quality to it. The bridge pickup's output is lower though than the neck pickup. I will have to see if I can adjust the height of the pickup and the pole pieces to get it right.

I will see if I can post a video up when I get a chance.

[keith]

Try setting the pole pieces like in the diagram below. This scheme was suggested in the "Guitar Electronics for Musicians" book by Donald Brosnac. I do this with all my humbuckers and it adds more detail and clarity to the sound. I actually set the pickups pretty close to the strings too. Just as side note I have a '77 Greco Les Paul which was equipped with Maxon U-1000 humbuckers and they are the most amazing PAF-style pickup I ever laid my ears on. Loads of chime and clarity. They have Alnico 8 magnets and were unpotted (before I wax potted them). They currently reside in a Flying V with out-of-phase and 1/2-out-phase reverse options plus a switchable LC network to roll off some midrange. Hard to find but they are great humbuckers. I also like Toneriders -- they're cheap and they make a few models but the Alnico II Classics are a good buy and the neck has great clarity. I'm also using some of their Generators in a semi-hollow and they're hotter but still retain a clear and nuanced top end.

Pardon my ignorance here but in your diagram do these represent the neck side placement or both neck and bridge poles? Thanks

[wildschwein]

Pardon my ignorance here but in your diagram do these represent the neck side placement or both neck and bridge poles? Thanks

Both neck and bridge.

[FriskyFingers]

I too have one of these great Greco ES175 copies (FA67-85S 1988). While I find little difference in the 'playability' between my 1990 Herb Ellis ES165 and this Greco ES175 copy there is one issue that is driving me a little nuts: When I pluck an open string (the D string in particular) I can hear/feel a very slight but persistent buzzing (much like a 'fret buzz' when the action is too low on a guitar and the neck is not right) but in this case I know that it is not a 'fret buzz' but instead seems to be coming from inside of a pickup or elsewhere within the body(?) Even if I physically hold one or both pickups tightly I still get this buzz and I have checked to confirm that every screw I can find is tight. It does not necessarily transfer to the amp as far as I can tell but it makes the guitar feel like a clunker (low quality) and short of pulling it all apart I wonder if anyone here has had and solved an issue like this. My Herb Ellis does not do this I am happy to say. The guitar is just like new and otherwise plays and sounds very good. Its actually perfect in every way with all original pickups and electronics but is has done this since the day a bought it so I tend not to play it very often. Any thoughts on this? Merry Christmas.

[Bebop Tom]

I have had to troubleshoot my share of buzzes over the years, so I suggest holding the following when plucking the D string to see if it is one of these issues:

The tuneamatic wire that holds the saddles in place (if it has one)
The truss rod cover
The volume and tone knobs
The tuner buttons
The pickguard

Your symptom sounds like something is vibrating sympathetically, so try all the above one at a time.