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I was wondering if somebody could help. I have a really nice Benedetto Bravo that I've had for about 6 months and it sounds great but I always feel like I'm battling to play it. I've adjusted the truss rod and lowered the action to be at it's best playability. I've also put 11s on it instead of 12s.
I am close to pulling the trigger on a Gibson ES-339 because it feels so much more comfortable to play and I currently don't have a semi hollow guitar.
So my question is, are there full hollowbody archtop guitars out there that play more like a semi hollow or solid body. For instance, could a ES-175 setup with the same gauge strings play as easily and nicely as a ES-339 or 335 or Les Paul?
I know that the Benedetto has a wide nut at 1 3/4 so this might be part of the problem. I've always played electric guitar and feel like I'm playin on an acoustic every time I play the Benedetto.
So anybody with both a es-335 and a es-175 should be able to help.
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09-29-2014 10:38 PM
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Different geometry, different construction and different voicing can make Archtops difficult to interchange with solid and semi hollow guitars. Archtops lack sustain. They position the playing positions for both hands much further from the body and the reduce access to the upper frets. From first hand experience, I can tell you that I believe it's a much bigger adjustment than going the other direction.
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How about re-casting your question: Is there a semi-hollow guitar that plays as a semi-hollow but sounds like a hollow-body archtop?
The ES-330/ES-390 types come to mind. You may also check out the Seventy-seven Guitars Exrubato Jazz (an ES-335 type with a laminated spruce top) and Stork Jazz (Les Paul type with a laminated spruce top), Hawk Jazz (thinline ES-175 type with a laminated spruce top), a PRS JA-15, a Collings Soco with a spruce top.
The Collings City Limits Jazz is shallow in depth (1 n 7/8th") and is a fully hollow archtop with a floating pup. I may also plug my favourite American archtop, a Gibson L-5CES "Captain Fingers" Lee Ritenour.
Just going out on a limb here to try to read your thoughts. Plugged in with flats and adjusting the amp to suit you, you could try your bop riffs on them and nobody in the audience who doesn't haunt the aisles of JGF or TGP is going to give a hoot.
Try them if you can get your mitts on them. JMCHHO.*
* Just My Cone-Headed Humble Opinion.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 09-30-2014 at 01:40 AM.
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I have an ES-335 from the early '70s. Not the most desireable model for 335 enthusiasts, but I love it. One thing that is differen, is that it doesn't have a full center block, just under the bridge. I think it has a more hollow sound than most 335s.
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What specifically is hard about playing it? is it harder to play at some points on the neck than at others (at the first five frets than at the 12th fret, for example)? Have you had a good guitar tech do a complete setup on it? What are you trying to play (bends, barres, etc.) that is harder on this guitar than others you have played?
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thanks for the replies. yes I think the 335 type guitar is a good all round guitar. A full semi hollow type would be cool to try too.
Cunamara, I have setup the guitar as good as any guitar tech could i think. I know how to adjust the truss rod etc. There isn't much to it. I guess the other thing to look at is the string height/action. The bridge is as low as it goes right now, but I think the guitar's action could go lower without fret buzz if the bridge allowed it. I've heard of people sanding down the base of the saddle but I wouldn't have thought that this would neccesary for such an expensive guitar. The action is low but not that low.
I have 3 other archtops in my possesion(not mine) that includes a Buscarino Virtuoso and I find on all of them that the bridges go down to certain point where the action is medium to low but not super low. So I have just come to the conclusion that that's the way it is with archtops. They all have a 1 3/4 nut width which I find a little wide. I have a strat and tele that are 1 5/8 which is almost too narrow. My ideal is 1 11/16.
So to answer your question cunamara, I'm not doing bends, not really any barre chords, just find my hand getting fatigued more than it should. I have been playing the Benedetto most of the time the last 6 months including about 10 gigs.
I am really curious about a full hollowbody archtop with a 1 11/16 nut width like the ES-175. It could suit me better, a long time ago I owned a Ibanez GB-10 and an epiphone joe pass and don't remeber those guitars being a struggle to play.
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Hi!
I have owned a Bravo for seven years now. The only thing that keeps it away from gigs is its value, not playability. Compared to my previous ES-175 it's very light and smaller to hold. The main difference against most other jazz boxes is a slightly wider neck and flatter fretboard - i.e. a more "classical" feel. This I believe is common to all Benedettos. I never grew into the 2004 ES, as its frets were too sharp and protruding. That was a bad year for Gibson, and earlier/later vintages may be better on this score. The string tension is entirely a function of scale length and string gauge, not the make of the instrument.
As other commentators have pointed out, a fully hollow jazzbox doesn't have the sustain of a semi-hollow, especially one with a solid center block. The full vs. semi issue has been analyzed in several previous threads. Years ago, I recommended the Yamaha SA-2200 as a jazzy-sounding and looking alternative to an archtop. For the cash you'd have to dish out when trading a Benedetto against anything in the price range, you might try the EPI ES-339. Mine has a set of .11 flatwounds, plays like butter and, thanks to the coil-split feature, has an amazing range of voices from very dark and smoky to twangy single-coil. The Bigsby version must be a real Swiss Army axe at a Far East price.
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I never played a Bravo and probably wouldn't until they made one with two pups, so I can't speak to it, but I do own a 330CS and I think it not nearly as lively as a full hollow body. Yeah I know it's "mostly" hollow but the block under the bridge doesn't help it any. Then there's those P90's, they have to meet your expectations too.
I have a 335, 175 and Les Paul but they're so different in just about every respect. I think you need to play more of the models you are thinking about, it just may be you wind up with a LP.
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To the OP, you may consider asking Victor Baker to make you the archtop that ticks all your boxes.
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To answer the original question about playability; I have a 175 and a 335. Both have 1,11/16th nuts; both can be adjusted to play and feel the same as far as action is concerned. So I'd say a well set up 175 can play as easily as any 335 - up to the 15th fret..
Of course, the other points raised above about neck accessibility, tone, sustain, ergonomics etc are all relevant - it's not the same guitar in other respects. But if playability is the real concern here, you could try a properly set up 175. Although the 175 is an arch top, it's definitely an electric arch top, with no real acoustic tone. That's not the point of a 175.
No experience of the benedetto; from others' comments, I'd imagine it is very different from a 175
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Gitterbug, I'm not sure about the fretboard being that flat. It's 12" so that is the same as Gibsons I believe.
Jabberwocky, I think a custom guitar could be an option, but a good 175 could tick all the boxes for me.
Franz 1997, thanks for that, it was what I was hoping to hear.
GNAPPI, I have actually seen a Bravo with 2 pickups. Somebody posted a thread not too long ago when they acquired it.
I think a VOS 59 ES-175 would be the ticket. Just a matter of finding one. Ishibashi in japan has one 2nd hand right now. A short flight from Taipei with the Benedetto and I could trade it in.
Not sure about locally, the prices for Gibsons are actually cheaper in Taiwan than in the USA but not a huge selection when it comes to ES guitars.
Next week I might just pickup the ES-339 that I've had my eye on lately.
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Steve, I think you'll have to find out what exactly doesn't suit you with your guitar. I understand you already stated that you need a 1 11/16" nut. But what about neck profile, body width, body depth, string distance from the top, guitar weight, balance ....and when you play seating, standing, or both ?
No experience with a Benedetto, but I own an ES-339 which is the easiest to play of my guitars.
In fact, I don't have any full-depth-full-hollow guitar because I don't feel comfortable with the body depth. As Jim stated above, hands position is quite different compared to playing a thin line.
That's why I love also my ES-125 T. Same kind of neck than my 339, wider but thin body. But with it, my picking hand always tend to slide towards the bridge, and I'm always struggling with that. And you have to forget the upper frets access.
And we've not yet spoken about the sound, just ergonomics ....!
Try to analyse what is wrong to you with your Benedetto, try as many guitars as you can with these criteria in mind and you'll find out.
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I believe the differences between a Bravo and a 339 are more related to the neck than the semi-hollow / archtop thing no? The hardest part on hunting guitars is finding one that feels right (comfortable). Once you know that it's just a matter of finding one that sounds good.
As Chris (Franz1997) says if you like the 339 than the 175 should be perfect. Although it does not excel acoustically I find archtops and semis to sound very different trough the amp, specially if you lower the volume which means more guitar and less pickup will be heard trough the amp. So I would get the 175 over the 339, if you're chasing the archtop sound.
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I really disagree with this (at least it wasn't my experience). For me, the big challenge was simply having my hands moved so much further from my body. I felt like I had lost a lot of leverage and with it, a lot of hand strength.
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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I get you Jim, for me left hand adjustment is much harder than right hand one when moving guitar types.
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I have a lot of different guitars, and I play each of them differently. That part of the point of having different guitars. One of my bandmates plays every guitar he owns the same way, whether it's a Strat or an Anderson. I, on the other hand, sound almost like a different person each time I switch guitars. Listen to the guitar, to how it wants to be played. Don't force it, but find what it excels at and explore that voice.
If you can't be with the guitar you love, love the guitar you're with
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comfort is sooo important
then sound
the guit must fit you like a glove ....
and sound nice
then you'll play it a lot and get really good ....
get the comfy one
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Is this for Jazz ? Originally Posted by D.G.
I have a lot of different guitars, and I play each of them differently. That part of the point of having different guitars. One of my bandmates plays every guitar he owns the same way, whether it's a Strat or an Anderson. I, on the other hand, sound almost like a different person each time I switch guitars. Listen to the guitar, to how it wants to be played. Don't force it, but find what it excels at and explore that voice.
If you can't be with the guitar you love, love the guitar you're with
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I am with Jabba.
The 330 is probably the best all rounder for Jazz and blues IMO. Get the short scale one too. You can pick up a new VOS for around £1500.
Heck I even got a 2012 one for £1,450 on ebay.
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Well if you still want that Benedetto sound with the feel of os semi hollow or chambered body then you may want to look at their new GA35 - their take on a Benedetto/335 hybrids. Unlike a 335 the lower bout is under 16" - I believe around 14".
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You may want to look into a guild starfire II/III or Seventy Seven Hawk. Thinline archtops which are hollowbody guitars, and extremely comfortable to play. Personally I have a starfire V as one of my semi-hollow bodies that I use for more experimental/noise driven music, but I have dialed in for more of a clean jazz sound. I think the guilds are great guitars and far to often overlooked. I am a little shocked nobody mentioned the Hawk or Starfire.
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wow, thanks for all the responses. I really do appreciate it!
I am not really finding the large body aspect uncomfortable. I actually like large bodied guitars, I have always played acoustic too, just not as much as electric. I have a 1965 Gibson LG-1 that is very easy to play, it has a 1 11/16 nut width and I'd say it's easier than the Benedetto. If I could get the action lower on the Benedetto it might just work for me even with the wider nut. After all, I'm very lucky to have such a nice guitar, maybe I should just learn to love it?
On the other hand, if something else did come up like an ES-175 and I was able to A/B it with the Benedetto then that would be great. If I did like the Es-175 more, I would most definitely trade in the Benedetto if I didn't lose too much money.
All the other options sound good too, the Guild starfires, the 77 hawk and excrubato as well as the es330. I just still think I like the full hollowbody sound.
I also would not get an es-339 or 335 to replace the Benedetto. I'd like a semi as well as a full hollowbody.
So for now, I'm looking at buying a 1994 Es-335 that is in top shape for about 1800USD. It's available locally and will try it out next week.
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As far as playability I think it goes the other way around - if you want your action really low then go to higher gauge strings - eg 13-14s Thomastic Infeld Benson and have your luthier set up guitar that that strings are very low. That is what my friend luthier does - high gauge and very low action. And play with soft touch (Robert Conti's "Precision Technique" is good to develop that). Personally I doubt that any 335 out there can beat your Benedetto (with proper setup) - and it sometimes takes a while to find correct combination of strings. I have d'Angelico Excel with floating pickup - had it for several years but never played it much - it always sounded a bit dull and too bright. Until I put black nylon tape La Bella 14-67s on it. Guitar plays like a dream now.
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ok thanks Woland, the base of the saddle will need to be sanded down to achieve such low action. Is this common practice?
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i was looking at the bridge on the Benedetto and noticed that even though it's down as low as it can go it has a gap of about 2-3mm between the saddle/bridge and the bridge base created by the thumb wheels. So I took the bridge off of the guitar and removed the thumb wheels completely. This made no difference to the bridge height because the poles on the bridge base are too high/long. (see photos). If I can cut the poles height down and leave the thumb wheels off that would do the trick. Or drill the holes right through the bridge but then the poles would protrude out of the top. Then there is the fact that the action might be too low. This does not seem right. Why should I have to do this on a $6500 guitar?
I have also included photos of the end of the finger board/neck suspended over the top of the body. The gap between the top of the body and the neck is not consistent the all the way along, there is more of gap on the left side than on the right. No idea if it should be like this or not? (photos were taken with the bridge off, so that's why it appears that the string action is low). So does the guitar need a neck reset?
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