Epiphone ES-175 - any disadvantage in pinning the bridge?

**g-gulliver** · 08-17-2014, 01:44 PM

Genuinely not trying to stir anything here, I'm wondering if there are disadvantages in pinning.

I've read about 'may need to move it if using different string gauge or action', but surely the scale should be whatever it is, regardless of string gauge, and so surely there's only one 'correct' position?

And doesn't a tune-o-matic cover the necessary fine intonation?

Personally, I don't have a problem repositioning it, but it's something I'd rather not have to do if it's been inadvertently knocked off position - which isn't unlikely when using lighter strings.

**GNAPPI** · 08-17-2014, 02:12 PM

With guidance from folks on this forum, I decided to buy a few all wood bridges for my ES-175 of rosewood and ebony. I'm glad my TOM wasn't pinned and I can always put it back the way it was if I ever have to sell it!

My bridges never move anyway.

**pubylakeg** · 08-17-2014, 02:28 PM

What string gauge do you have on the Epi ES-175 ?.

**g-gulliver** · 08-17-2014, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by GNAPPI

With guidance from folks on this forum, I decided to buy a few all wood bridges for my ES-175 of rosewood and ebony. I'm glad my TOM wasn't pinned and I can always put it back the way it was if I ever have to sell it!
My bridges never move anyway.

I don't know enough to consider swapping.
I've accidentally nudged the bridge out of position - and from what I've read I'm not alone.

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

What string gauge do you have on the Epi ES-175 ?.

Currently, I'm not sure - looks/feels like 10/11.

I'm interested in experimenting with lighter (for a non-Jazz tone).

**pubylakeg** · 08-18-2014, 06:33 PM

Just curious regarding your string gauge and your previous feedback issue. As you mention yourself, lighter strings increase the likelihood of the bridge shifting.
I'd actually have to say, regardless of the pinning question, the Es-175 type guitar might not be the ideal platform to put light strings on. Y'know, the hollow body and floating bridge need some tension and physical mass of string to make the body resonate and produce a tone.
Purely my opinion. You might well have different results in mind.
All the best.

**vinlander** · 08-18-2014, 06:54 PM

The main disadvantage would be the loss of value if you want to sell it later on.
10 is already light string, going for lower gauge might not be a good idea if you are a bender, the bridge will easily slide!
An option could be to sell the ES 175 and buy an ES 137 which is pretty much a slimmer pinned bridge and stop bar version of the 175.

**Jabberwocky** · 08-19-2014, 02:08 AM

You could use thin double-sided adhesive tape for that. Or try cello or violin bow rosin. Smear it on the underside of the bridge.

If you are going to pin the bridge of an archtop you may be better off playing a semi-hollow because the end result is gonna be quite the same.

**docbop** · 08-19-2014, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by g-gulliver

Personally, I don't have a problem repositioning it, but it's something I'd rather not have to do if it's been inadvertently knocked off position - which isn't unlikely when using lighter strings.

Lighter strings you are more likely to knock the bridge out of position because lighter string mean less pressure pushing the bridge down.

**oldane** · 08-19-2014, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by g-gulliver

I've read about 'may need to move it if using different string gauge or action', but surely the scale should be whatever it is, regardless of string gauge, and so surely there's only one 'correct' position?

Not quite so.

First, a thicker = stiffer string will begin to vibrate a little bit farther from the bridge (due to the stiffness) than a lighter = more pliable string. Thus the bridge will have to be set a little further towards the tailpiece with the stiffer string to compensate. BTW, this is also the reason for the compensating with the bridge saddle for each string of a set so the thicker strings are set further from the fretboard than the thinner strings.

Second, with a higher action, the bridge will also have to be repositioned a bit towards the tailpiece to compensate for the extra strechting of the string by fretting it with the higher action. You so to speak bend the string a bit when fretting it.

And doesn't a tune-o-matic cover the necessary fine intonation?

It may or may not, depending on your chosen setup. But when using a wood bridge saddle (very common on a 175), you don't have this option. The only way of intonating for a different setup - other than have a new saddle cut - is to move the bridge back forth forth.

Personally, I don't have a problem repositioning it, but it's something I'd rather not have to do if it's been inadvertently knocked off position - which isn't unlikely when using lighter strings.

IF you use light strings and IF you are a heavy handed player who let the enthusiam get the better of you, the bridge may be repositioned by accident. However, I have never had it happen to me once in my 45 years of archtop playing. If you use use medium to heavy strings - which is normal for a guitar set up for jazz - it will keep the bridge in place by strings pressure alone, unless you are playing with Pete Townshend windmills.

My preference is very clear: I won't pin the bridge on any of my archtops. One of the beauties of the archtop is the enormous capacity for very different setups and that flexibility is greatly reduced if the bridge is pinned.

Like others have said, pinning the bridge will likely reduce the resale value. As we are talking about a 175, which is mostly used by jazzers, it may even be diffecult to sell with a pinned bridge because there are som many other 175s out there with normal floating bridges.

**g-gulliver** · 08-19-2014, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by pubylakeg

Just curious regarding your string gauge and your previous feedback issue. As you mention yourself, lighter strings increase the likelihood of the bridge shifting.
I'd actually have to say, regardless of the pinning question, the Es-175 type guitar might not be the ideal platform to put light strings on. Y'know, the hollow body and floating bridge need some tension and physical mass of string to make the body resonate and produce a tone.
Purely my opinion. You might well have different results in mind.
All the best.

Thanks.
I hadn't considered lighter strings producing more feedback.

I understand the reasoning of lights not being ideal for the model, although, from memory, 10 is as-supplied by Epi/Gibson.

And I think there's likely many using fat strings simply because they've read that's the way to go and haven't experimented... I'll likely sometime restring with heavier, but for now, the tone and resonance is fine for me.

Originally Posted by vinlander

The main disadvantage would be the loss of value if you want to sell it later on.
10 is already light string, going for lower gauge might not be a good idea if you are a bender, the bridge will easily slide!
An option could be to sell the ES 175 and buy an ES 137 which is pretty much a slimmer pinned bridge and stop bar version of the 175.

Thanks. I appreciate the 'value' angle - and prefer to keep things standard anyway, so my question is more theoretical than an intended action.

And, as mentioned earlier, from memory, 10 is as-supplied by Epi/Gibson.

Bending isn't my desire - just ease of playability... I prefer not to 'fight' with a string.

The recently-introduced current Epi version has pinning... presumably to increase appeal to a wider market, but probably also as 'a modern convenience' - lot's of 'used to be this way' need no longer apply.

On the 137... although I can see the suitability, it'd be another un-needed guitar, and perhaps more so as this has the conventional electric TOM/Stopbar like an LP (which I have). I play for personal enjoyment and relaxation, and don't 'need' the 175 - but as I already have it I'm currently reluctant to part with it, certainly just yet and until I've explored whether it's something I'll likely play enough to keep.

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

You could use thin double-sided adhesive tape for that. Or try cello or violin bow rosin. Smear it on the underside of the bridge.
If you are going to pin the bridge of an archtop you may be better off playing a semi-hollow because the end result is gonna be quite the same.

Thanks.
Rosin is something I'm considering, and preferable to tape.

'Pinned = same as semi-hollow'...? You mean in terms of mechanics, rather than tone?

**cosmic gumbo** · 08-19-2014, 02:31 AM

I hear that Ted Nugent uses thin double sided tape to secure the bridges on his Byrdlands. Even he knows it's uncool to be pinning the bridge on a hollow Gibson.

**g-gulliver** · 08-19-2014, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

First, a thicker = stiffer string will begin to vibrate a little bit farther from the bridge (due to the stiffness) than a lighter = more pliable string. Thus the bridge will have to be set a little further towards the tailpiece with the stiffer string to compensate.

Second, with a higher action, the bridge will also have to be repositioned a bit towards the tailpiece to compensate for the extra strechting of the string by fretting it with the higher action.

(Tune-o-matic)... It may or may not, depending on your chosen setup. But when using a wood bridge saddle (very common on a 175), you don't have this option. The only way of intonating for a different setup - other than have a new saddle cut - is to move the bridge back forth forth.

Thanks. Good point - and, as you also suggested, surely we're talking about miniscule measurements (though of course enough to affect intonation), and which are within the adjustment range of the TOM?

Originally Posted by oldane

IF you use light strings and IF you are a heavy handed player who let the enthusiam get the better of you, the bridge may be repositioned by accident. However, I have never had it happen to me once in my 45 years of archtop playing. If you use use medium to heavy strings - which is normal for a guitar set up for jazz - it will keep the bridge in place by strings pressure alone, unless you are playing with Pete Townshend windmills.

My preference is very clear: I won't pin the bridge on any of my archtops. One of the beauties of the archtop is the enormous capacity for very different setups and that flexibility is greatly reduced if the bridge is pinned.

Like others have said, pinning the bridge will likely reduce the resale value. As we are talking about a 175, which is mostly used by jazzers, it may even be diffecult to sell with a pinned bridge because there are som many other 175s out there with normal floating bridges.

It's not enthusiasm - I find the can be easily moved with these strings, and I'm keen to experiment with lighter. A normal jazz setup isn't my focus.

And, as mentioned, I think that on this model the TOM should cover variances - which is likely why it's now pinned on current models.

**oldane** · 08-19-2014, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by g-gulliver

Thanks. Good point - and, as you also suggested, surely we're talking about miniscule measurements (though of course enough to affect intonation), and which are within the adjustment range of the TOM?

Like I wrote, depending on the setup, it may or may not be within the adjustment range of a TOM. But still that doesn't help if a wood saddle is used. You may want to use a TOM now, but if you pin the bridge and you (or a future owner of the guitar) later want to use a wood saddle instead of a TOM, a pinned bridge may restrict the range of action and string gauge you can set the guitar up for.

So I would say, fix the bridge if the need for it clearly presents itself (that is, the bridge actually moves when you play). Otherwise leave it floating. If fixing it, try reversible methods (doublesided tape, rosin etc.) before resorting to pins.

Freddie Greens very high action could not have been compensated within the adjustment range of a TOM, but I admit it's an extreme setup which very few - if any - would use on a 175. But I would also have had problems with the two archtops I use for acoustic rhythm playing if the bridge had been fixed because the action is set high (though not at all as high as Freddie Greens).

Travlin Light-Diane Schuur&Freddie Green - Dailymotion??

**g-gulliver** · 08-19-2014, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Like I wrote, depending on the setup, it may or may not be within the adjustment range of a TOM. But still that doesn't help if a wood saddle is used. You may want to use a TOM now, but if you pin the bridge and you (or a future owner of the guitar) later want to use a wood saddle instead of a TOM, a pinned bridge may restrict the range of action and string gauge you can set the guitar up for.

So I would say, fix the bridge if the need for it clearly presents itself (that is, the bridge actually moves when you play). Otherwise leave it floating. If fixing it, try reversible methods (doublesided tape, rosin etc.) before resorting to pins.

Freddie Greens very high action could not have been compensated within the adjustment range of a TOM, but I admit it's an extreme setup which very few - if any - would use on a 175. But I would also have had problems with the two archtops I use for acoustic rhythm playing if the bridge had been fixed because the action is set high (though not at all as high as Freddie Greens).

Thanks - all good points and useful knowledge.

Although I don't see myself using a wood bridge, out of respect to the guitar I'll leave as-is (unpinned) and use rosin.

**cc_mac** · 08-19-2014, 06:43 AM

In addition to the methods mentioned above there are a few other ways other than pinning which will reduce or eliminate movement of a floating bridge. Here are two to consider.

1) Affix 220 grit sandpaper to the bottom of the bridge so that the abrasive side makes contact with the body. This as you can image will mar the finish slightly but if one carefully sets up the guitar including intonation for a given set of strings, marks the position of the bridge with tape or light pencil marks and then sets the bridge back in place with the sandpaper affixed then it will dig into the top of the finish a bit but only in the unseen area for the given setup. Any finish marring could be cleaned up at a later time by taping around the effected area and wet sanding with a succession of finer grit papers such as 600, 1200, 2000, etc followed by polishing.

2) Obtain a simple rubber blow up rubber ballon such as that a child might have or those used for party decorations. Cut a piece of the ballon material that is slightly smaller than the footprint of the bridge. You may need to cut two pieces depending on the uninflated area of the ballon you have in hand. The ballon material positioned between the bottom of the bridge and the body will provide a great deal of friction under the downward pressure of the strings under tension and keep the bridge from moving easily or at all.

I recommend trying the ballon method first as it's inexpensive, quick, noninvasive, and very effective. The sandpaper method is essentially bulletproof but leaves its mark so to speak. In either case, a careful setup with new strings of your taste should be done first, bridge position marked, etc.

Chris
1969 Guild Starfire IV
1999 Guild X150D

**g-gulliver** · 08-19-2014, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by cc_mac

In addition to the methods mentioned above there are a few other ways other than pinning which will reduce or eliminate movement of a floating bridge. Here are two to consider.

...Affix 220 grit sandpaper...

...Obtain a simple rubber blow up rubber ballon...

Thanks - they're interesting ideas I'd not have thought of.

**Greentone** · 08-19-2014, 10:12 AM

Really...the bridge is pinned on current factory examples? Yeow.

**Finn** · 08-19-2014, 10:28 AM

I've been playing archtops since the 60's I never had a bridge move yet you must be clumsy or heavy handed for that to happen.

"The recently-introduced current Epi version has pinning"

There is no current ES175 it's a discontinued model.

**vinlander** · 08-19-2014, 11:42 AM

Epiphone ES-175 Premium
There seems to be a new Epi 175 coming they talk about it here:

"Floating Rosewood Base with "Tune-o-Matic" Bridge; Pinned"

**g-gulliver** · 08-19-2014, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Really...the bridge is pinned on current factory examples? Yeow.

Why not? With a TOM, a fixed position will handle the likely string gauges. Archtop has 'modern' appeal, beyond wooden bridges.

Originally Posted by Finn

I've been playing archtops since the 60's I never had a bridge move yet you must be clumsy or heavy handed for that to happen.

"The recently-introduced current Epi version has pinning"

There is no current ES175 it's a discontinued model.

From what I've read, bridge movement is a not uncommon occurrence - which is perhaps some of the reasoning for the new model.

**Finn** · 08-19-2014, 02:26 PM

I concede to your superior knowledge, I can't find a dealer with one listed for order or preorder, if you look at that picture
they have had to angle the bridge to achieve the intonation, self defeating in my opinion and I've still never had a bridge move unintentionally nor do I know anyone who has. A pinned bridge is probably aimed at the rock/pop fraternity who play hard they must be desperate for sales.

**339 in june** · 08-19-2014, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by g-gulliver

Why not? With a TOM, a fixed position will handle the likely string gauges. Archtop has 'modern' appeal, beyond wooden bridges.

From what I've read, bridge movement is a not uncommon occurrence - which is perhaps some of the reasoning for the new model.

The Tune-O-Matic is pinned on the base but the base is not, or did I miss something ?

The bridge of my ES125T moved when it was stringed with 10's (when I bought it)
Now that I put 11's on it (D"Addario or La Bella) I never had problem of bridge move anymore

**docbop** · 08-19-2014, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Finn

I concede to your superior knowledge, I can't find a dealer with one listed for order or preorder, if you look at that picture
they have had to angle the bridge to achieve the intonation, self defeating in my opinion and I've still never had a bridge move unintentionally nor do I know anyone who has. A pinned bridge is probably aimed at the rock/pop fraternity who play hard they must be desperate for sales.

Back in my Rock days and playing hard I picked up a Gibson I think it was a 125 or 225 and that bridge was slipping all over all over when I played rhythm. I eventually pinned the bridge in a way who ever has it now is wondering what the hell was this guy thinking??? I guess karma bite in in the ass with the ES-175 I recent traded for, the guy had used double stick tape to pin the bridge, trouble is he used automotive tape and getting rid of it took some finish with it.

So you now know someone who pinned a bridge. I would agree Epiphone probably looked at their demographics and
realized rocker's with light strings we better pin that sucker. I've bought two used archtops from GC because price was good and both had very light strings and super low action. So rocker's see an archtop and figure this should be fun, and find its a totally different world.

**SuperFour00** · 08-19-2014, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by g-gulliver

Genuinely not trying to stir anything here, I'm wondering if there are disadvantages in pinning.

I've read about 'may need to move it if using different string gauge or action', but surely the scale should be whatever it is, regardless of string gauge, and so surely there's only one 'correct' position?

And doesn't a tune-o-matic cover the necessary fine intonation?

Personally, I don't have a problem repositioning it, but it's something I'd rather not have to do if it's been inadvertently knocked off position - which isn't unlikely when using lighter strings.

You won't get more feedback. About positioning the base, if you permanently attach it in the position that allows some leeway in both directions on the saddles with the strings you currently use, you'll be able to intonate a variety of strings. I never had an issue using 10s, 11s, 12s, 13s or 14s on an ES150D with a fixed bridge.

**g-gulliver** · 08-19-2014, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Finn

I concede to your superior knowledge, I can't find a dealer with one listed for order or preorder, if you look at that picture
they have had to angle the bridge to achieve the intonation, self defeating in my opinion and I've still never had a bridge move unintentionally nor do I know anyone who has. A pinned bridge is probably aimed at the rock/pop fraternity who play hard they must be desperate for sales.

Considering 'superior knowledge' with your earlier remarks about 'clumsy' and 'there is no current model', and it appears you have an issue with either my post, me, Epiphone, or perhaps more.

That's an issue with which, beyond 'please don't - it helps nobody', I'll concern myself no further, and simply address your most recent points...

Whether you can find one isn't relevant.

The angled bridge seems similar to The Gibson ES175, and is usual for a TOM... although I suspect there's probably enough adjustment in the TOM for the bridge to not be so-angled (the original Gibson Dove had a TOM mounted at 90 degrees to the strings... and the Byrdland has a less extreme angle).

Incidentally, the less expensive 'Epi' range has a traditional compensated rosewood bridge rather than a TOM.

And although you, like many others, have never had a bridge move, many have - which is perhaps why Epiphone is not alone in offering pinned models (example: Gretsch).

And 'aimed at... desperate for sales' isn't the issue here.