Solid wood archtop : your take on high humidity ?

[xuoham]

Sorry for probably beating a dead horse.

I read and gathered here and at the acousticguitarforum a good amount of info about humidity and guitars in general but besides theory, i would like to know who really puts back his/her all solid wood archtop in its case after playing during high humidity periods.

I definitely put the guitar in its case during dry periods (seldom where i live) but i am more wondering about high humidity: besides the change in tone, what can be the damage for someone whose heaviest gauge is 11-52 and who tunes a whole step down ? Mmmm ...

Muchas Gracias Amigos

[medblues]

Sorry for probably beating a dead horse.

I read and gathered here and at the acousticguitarforum a good amount of info about humidity and guitars in general but besides theory, i would like to know who really puts back his/her all solid wood archtop in its case after playing during high humidity periods.

I definitely put the guitar in its case during dry periods (seldom where i live) but i am more wondering about high humidity: besides the change in tone, what can be the damage for someone whose heaviest gauge is 11-52 and who tunes a whole step down ? Mmmm ...

Muchas Gracias Amigos

I would keep the guitar in the case if the environmental humidity id fluctuating wildly. But I have a humidity controlled environment in my house that flattens the swings considerably and allows me to keep my solid wood guitars out of their cases.

[xuoham]

On the acousticguitarforum.com there seems to be a consensus that whereas sudden temperature swings are very bad for guitars, humidity swings are a different thing since the guitar has a big inertia and slowly absorbs or rejects humidity ...

But anyway, my question was not so much about swings, but more about an extended period of hight humidity, like two or three weeks.

I would love to have a humidity controlled environment for sure Thanks for sharing !

[disco~juice]

My guitar stays more steady in tuning and playability when it is humid than when it's dry.


Temperature acts faster than humidity, that's what you should avoid, rapid changes in temp.

[xuoham]

If i may be more precise:

my original question is only about high and steady (like one or two weeks) humidity and all solid wood archtops,
which is already a vast question.

I guess the gauge used is important in terms of damage to the guitar. No doubt that an archtop strung with 13/56 gauge will suffer more warping than, say, my Yunzhi that is modestly strung with 11/52 custom light and tuned down a whole step in D.

[Spook410]

Hey Xuoham.. I lived in Houston, Texas (high humidity most of the time) for a long time. What I found was that my guitars were quite stable. Heat in parked cars were what I had to watch out for, not humidity. I don't believe high humidity is going to hurt a flat top or archtop. As you go above 60% RH (or so) I do think it deadens the tone some but I have nothing scientific to back that up with. As far as the case goes, unless you're using a desiccant or humidifier, the humidity in the case should be the same as the room the case is in.

[coolvinny]

Back in the case unless I'm just taking a brief practice break. Same goes for my laminate archtop.

[goldenwave77]

Observation on high humidity

Spring time in the East here after the dryness of the winter...and forced air-vent heating...noticing in the spring shower season that the guitar is a pretty sensitive relative humidity gauge...which is not a very novel observation...

But....after buying a clip-on tuner and probably playing more now, due to more free time, it really surprises me how much the effect is....a damp day---and next day, or at night, the strings can be 5 cents or more sharp...therefore time to decrease string tension---which responds to your original point. (Apart from prolonging string life, due to less stretching out of the strings, it probably is also helping out to release neck tension. Yes, I know guitar necks are made to accommodate a certain amt. of stress, but it just can't be good to have them tighter than they need to be, because of high humidity causing the wood to swell, creating more tension...)

I suppose the flip side of this is that if you're needing to tighten strings all the time, when you pick up the instrument to play (in order to get into tune), then maybe your guitar is really crying out for more humidity in its environment...

[PTChristopher2]

Wowie, try to ask a simple and focussed question, huh?

>>> my original question is only about high and steady (like one or two weeks) humidity and all solid wood archtops,
which is already a vast question.

>>> who really puts back his/her all solid wood archtop in its case after playing during high humidity periods.

I do. But the humidity in the case it only a bit lower than the peak daily humidity in the room during the humid summer.

In my opinion, there is little to no value in putting the guitar back in the case under your described long-term humid conditions unless you are using a desiccant of some sort, AND carefully controlling the action of the desiccant (which I have never seen anyone actually do).

Further, there is arguably some slightly increased chance of mold, staining, and other unpleasant manifestations with a guitar in a humid case than in a humid room.

But of course, cases are also useful for impact damage - so this is a good reason to use them in many seemingly friendly environments.

In my opinion.

Chris

[xuoham]

Thanks for all those answers !

My bad for not stating "case+desiccant" ! Of course, without the desiccant part,
one might laugh a little bit at my question.

I use some silica gel sheets that can be "recharged" (decharged) with a microwave oven.
Cheap and efficient.

PTChris and Spook, you guys not only confirm what i wanted to hear (chuckle) but the mold and stain
remarks make sense to me.
Exactly as when i see people jogging in an inappropriate way, it's sometimes pathetic to see harm (on body or guitar) caused by misinformed good will.

Right now my Yunzhi has the same diet as my flat tops, that is in the case at about 50% RH until the end of the rainy season, it can't hurt i guess, but dang, i just hate seeing beautiful and great sounding guitars in their case whereas they are just waiting to be picked at the pace of one's inspiration !
Archtop ... Tele ... Dreadnought ... 335 ... Nylon hybrid ... OM ...

Thanks a lot for everybody's time and input, this is a great help !

[PTChristopher2]

>>> confirm what i wanted to hear (chuckle)

I was going to say that those pants you wore to last year's jazzguitar.be Christmas Party were very "slimming".

I figured you would want to hear that, but I lacked to confidence to talk about your pants (that's "trousers" to you Britons!).

>>> Exactly as when i see people jogging in an inappropriate way,

I was once jogging in Singapore in the rain. People looked at me like I had lost my mind (not the first time,...). I figured that rain was maybe cooler than staggering humidity in the sun. It turned out to be just a different way to be soaked.

>>> i just hate seeing beautiful and great sounding guitars in their case

Is a room dehumidifier not practical?

Chris

[Scot Tremblay]

Generally speaking guitars can handle high humidity better than low...within reason. But prolonged exposure to either extreme can be equally as devistating to the instrument, just differently. A lot also depends on the humidity that the guitar was built in. Most shops these days maintain a level in the range of 40 - 50% (I keep mine 40 - 45%). Some of the small individual makers can adjust their level to closer to the humidity of the location that the guitar will spend most of it's time. I'm presently making a couple guitars going to the American South West where the humidity can be around 10% or less on a regular basis so I've dried up my assembly room to about 25 - 30%. That extra 10%, one hopes, is enough to stave off any major issue later on if the instruments aren't properly looked after (meaning not in their case adequately humidified when not being played).

Specifically, exposure to high humidity can cause joint failure, finish damage, warping, if your guitar has transverse (ladder) back or top braces for support (steel string/ classical) these braces can expand enough to poke through the sides or push the sides away from the top/back at that point (I've had to fix this problem on old guitars a number times), the fingerboard can backbow causing action problems (sometimes to an unplayable degree), I've seen frets squeezed up....and the list goes on.

As a guitar player, I can understand the desire to leave the beautiful object of our obsession out for display and easy access for when the inspiration hits. However as a builder, I have a very hard time understanding why someone would spend many hundreds even thousands of dollars on their prized possession only to leave it exposed to fluctuating humidity, temperature changes, accidential impacts, direct sunlight through practice room windows...when simply putting it in the case that was designed to protect it is a 15 second action which will save a great deal of pain, anguish and regret later on...but that's just the builder in me coming out, pay no mind.

[fumblefingers]

Generally speaking guitars can handle high humidity better than low...within reason. But prolonged exposure to either extreme can be equally as devistating to the instrument, just differently. A lot also depends on the humidity that the guitar was built in. Most shops these days maintain a level in the range of 40 - 50% (I keep mine 40 - 45%). Some of the small individual makers can adjust their level to closer to the humidity of the location that the guitar will spend most of it's time. I'm presently making a couple guitars going to the American South West where the humidity can be around 10% or less on a regular basis so I've dried up my assembly room to about 25 - 30%. That extra 10%, one hopes, is enough to stave off any major issue later on if the instruments aren't properly looked after (meaning not in their case adequately humidified when not being played).

Specifically, exposure to high humidity can cause joint failure, finish damage, warping, if your guitar has transverse (ladder) back or top braces for support (steel string/ classical) these braces can expand enough to poke through the sides or push the sides away from the top/back at that point (I've had to fix this problem on old guitars a number times), the fingerboard can backbow causing action problems (sometimes to an unplayable degree), I've seen frets squeezed up....and the list goes on.

As a guitar player, I can understand the desire to leave the beautiful object of our obsession out for display and easy access for when the inspiration hits. However as a builder, I have a very hard time understanding why someone would spend many hundreds even thousands of dollars on their prized possession only to leave it exposed to fluctuating humidity, temperature changes, accidential impacts, direct sunlight through practice room windows...when simply putting it in the case that was designed to protect it is a 15 second action which will save a great deal of pain, anguish and regret later on...but that's just the builder in me coming out, pay no mind.

ditto. it simply seems foolish.

you might also want to close your case right after opening it, when its humid. cases can trap in the very moisture that you're trying to avoid.

[SuperFour00]

I live on the Gulf Coast now, humidity is over 90% often (it is right now) and high most of the year. It hasn't created a problem with any of my archtops, but in a very humid environment in California, I had two handmade (Madrid, Spain) classical guitars separate at glue joints along the sides at the back and front. Madrid is pretty dry most of the time. I think Gibson uses better glues, insofar as humidity changes go.

[xuoham]

[QUOTE=Scot Tremblay;424929]...when simply putting it in the case that was designed to protect it is a 15 second action which will save a great deal of pain, anguish and regret later on...but that's just the builder in me coming out, pay no mind.[/QUOTE

Sigh ... yes, that's wisdom i guess, regardless humidity, especially knowing that here anytime there can be an earthquake weak enough to keep worrying for guitars (and slimming pants ... uh wait! i'm slim already !) instead of my life, but strong enough to cause damage.

[Archtop Guy]

I had a beautiful Heritage Johnny Smith that I purchase as I was moving into my new South Carolina home.The guitar came to me from Arizona.I only had her for a week or so sitting in the corner of my air conditioned home when I noticed the crack in the top. I had previously blamed my large cat for landing on the case. Then I realized that even with the a/c on, the guitar had simply been to dry to handle even the air conditioned humidity in South Carolina. I must ask,since this is what this thread is about. My home stays at roughly 61%. I keep my guitars in their cases (pain in the a) with desiccant and they seem fine. If I were to hang them they would be need slight tuning fairly soon.Proving,to me,that they are absorbing moisture .Does any here feel that the guitars would simply adapt themselves to the humidity of their environment? These guitars are not in the same situation as the Arizona piece was.

[vinlander]

Guitars do adapt themselves to humidity of their environment and that is the problem.
They absorb and release humidity according to the ambient % causing them to expand and retract with the changes which can lead to problems. The neck is usually the first element to tell you about lack or to much humidity.
Fret binding cracks due to fret board retraction is not cool...
I try to keep a constant humidity rate in the room as much as possible but not always easy. One just need to open the windows on a windy dry day and it can dramatically go fast from 60% to 20% or the opposite on a warm and rainy day with the potential consequences. Dryness (extreme) is the worst enemy of wood.
Keeping instruments in their cases is the best protection against sudden change in humidity %. On the long run it will not make much difference as the inside will also slowly adapt to environment so better try to keep things relatively constant.
I use a portable humidifier during winter and air conditioned during summer and keep pretty much constant from 40-55% all year long.
Depends on where one is living, here in Montreal it goes from one extreme to the other very fast.

[Greentone]

I have lived in very high (Louisiana) and very low (California) humidity environments and everything in between. My Gibson archtop even did a tour in Saudi for a year. In cases, out of cases. I haven't found guitars to be as delicate as all that...but very extreme humidities for prolonged periods have consequences.

i use cases to avoid life's accidents...dogs, kids, the wife, etc. a bump, a jostle and oops!

[h1pst3r88]

Boston -- any given Monday in April could be 35degrees with 28% humidity. Tuesday could be 65degrees with 68% humidity. These swings could start in mid-March and continue through late May.

Humid days you are sharp, dry days you are flat as the instrument expands and contracts. This is all exacerbated in the winter when the dry air heat counters any humidity in the air -- or in July and August when it's 90% humidity.

The northeast is hell on guitars.

-Chris

[JazzNote]

Most of the time i store one ore two guitars on a stand in my studio. Fortunately i don't need to care about too much humidity here in Switzerland. If it is high it could go up to 70% but i never thought of leaving guitars in the case because of this, as there were no issues so far. In winter it can get dry which has an effect on string action but so far i could control it well enough with dampit humidifiers which i use on the instruments which permanently stay out of the cases.

[mwcarr]

As a player of not only guitar but even more fragile instruments, violin and mandolin, I always have instruments in their cases if I'm not playing them. I have hygrometers in all the cases and humidify as needed during the heating season and have never noticed any real problems in the humid seasons. I do find my flat top and arch top guitars to be slightly sharp during the humid times but they tend to stabilize quickly once being used. I always advise students: in your hands, on a solid stand or in the case.

[Ol' Fret]

While (seasoned) spruce length along the grain changes almost zero with humidity, crossgrain changes around 2%, and tangential ca. 3%. This is one reason why quarter-cut plates can better withstand the ravages of time. Therefore, on an archtop guitar, the crossgrain changes would easily affect the plate width several millimeters. Fortunately, the basic design of carved arched instruments allows them to fudge width around with arching height, adding or subtracting from the arching under different conditions to give more wiggle room.

The bad effects of RH changes are either high temperature (for example, leaving an instrument in the sun or in a trunk), where moisture is driven off in a hurry, or low RH (lower than when it was assembled) over an extended period. The failure modes will be splits or a popped seam (center seam and/or side detachment).
High humidity is much more forgiving - unless the instrument was assembled under extraordinary dry conditions, or some old glue is failing due to mold (like HHG) or undue humidity (fish glue). Self-evidently, these glues are far superior to aliphatic resin glues... in the long run.

Best treatment for fine archtop guitars is like you would treat good friends at home: certainly you won't put the latter in cases, but give them shelter from rain, hot sun, toddlers or mad dogs, etc., and you would agree they should get some protecting cover during transit - in cars, trains or airplanes.





L'art est la preuve que la vie ne suffit pas. - Cesare Pavese -

[xuoham]

While (seasoned) spruce length along the grain changes almost zero with humidity, crossgrain changes around 2%, ....... protecting cover during transit - in cars, trains or airplanes.
L'art est la preuve que la vie ne suffit pas. - Cesare Pavese -

Excellent ! (Quote Included )