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jbl's are great guitar gear speakers too...they were the choice of leo fender very early on..seperate entity from their studio monitor speakers though
that cab looks like it's baffle was cut for a 12" speaker at one time (a popular mod)..and now has been restored back to a 10" via that plywood frame
prob a killer sounding amp
cheers
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09-25-2016 11:29 AM
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Well, in 1968 I had a pre CBS Twin Reverb with JBL D120Fs........how I wish I still did........
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I'm 64 and have be playing since I was 8 and as of recently moved to Jazz Guitar using a 80's Polytone Improve Jazz Box. As a kid my kind father bought me Fender amps which I would blow up, like the vintage tweed models, etc. I did try a 15 watt 12" FPR RI recently did not like it at all and sent it back, then cooled off for awhile to regain my focus. As of a month ago I found a darn near mint 77 FPR, I have to say it just blew away that fancy RI model, in buttery tone and clean volume. Vol 3-3.5 is where the Jazz tone is and plenty of level to play with tasteful dynamic players. I had a 74 SF Twin before this, WAY to loud for anything and can never be a house amp in my book. This little 77 FPR gem is the best tube amp yet for home/studio use, I also have two Cubes that are quite good for the Jazz thing and other genres. What I did is I added 78 8ohm Rola 15" in a cab, and now I have bass for days, just great full body tube tones. I would never alter an amp with putting in larger speakers, etc. just add a nice cab and take the speaker jack out to the cab, you will be amazed without altering your vintage amp, the tone is already in the amp! In 2017, $1100 is not too expensive for a amp such as these, look what those little PtP tube boutique amps run you, way more. All I can say is if you find a 70's FPR, GRAB IT! Its the real deal Fender tone that won't blow your ears out, its a solid investment, and they just sound marvelous!
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Extension cabs do wonders for tube amps. Moving more air, rather than moving air harder, is just the ticket, IMHO. Is the Rola open back or closed? Both options have their strengths, I lean toward closed (or "infinite baffle) myself. In any case, congratulations on a real find, and play it in good health! 
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Well I knew the FPR would lack the bass response that I enjoy, but after saying that I was quite surprised that it sounded real decent with a Patriot speaker that came in it. I just went on eBay and found this new/old 1978 15" Rola instrument speaker on the cheap and also bought a new empty closed cabinet made for a 15" speaker, so it all cost around $150. It worked out great, I keep the FPR bass around 4, with treble around 6, the cab really adds a lot of depth. I read on line from a lot sources about the OHM value for this amp, many stating its 4 and 16 OHM when connecting a speaker cab, nope, I called Fender directly and they said it is strictly a 8 OHM load when using the internal speaker as well which turns into a 4 OHM load. So if ur pumping more then one 8 OHM speaker, you will need to unplug the internal speaker, this is where you can cause damage to the actual amp components at high levels. I know I'm getting off track here, but I feel this is important info for folks out there and not to take the word of someone who thinks they know like the stuff I read, not true, always call the manufacture for the real scoop.
Cheers
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I don't know the market on those so I can't say how great a deal that is. BUT I do know how to look around, I suggest you get out on eBay and look at Princeton Reverbs from that era, even go so far as to do an Advanced Search on Completed Items and see what people were asking, ect.
I bought I think a '70 silver face Princeton Reverb that had been Patrick's and I love it man... I'm a Deluxe Reverb buy actually, I like the slightly beefier tone of a 12 inch speaker. I think the Princeton could handle a 12 ok... So are you gonna be Secret Santa to yourself or not.
You KNOW I am one of the most shameless enablers on this BB... LOL
Good luck deciding. Sounds like you already made up your mind to adopt it...
Big
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At $1,150 I'd say go for it, especially with a JBL. There may be some wiggle room in your negotiations due to the baffle mod.
Since it is a local sale, be sure to check it out as thoroughly as you can. Ask about any recent servicing. Turn up the volume and listen for any crackling, popping or hum. The less of all of those basic indicators, the better. Obviously play through the amp and see if you like the tone. There should be a bit more headroom with an efficient JBL. Check the speaker for signs of a recone (i.e. new-ish looking glue around the cone).
Here's the latest price range for '75 Princeton Reverb amps from Reverb.
Reverb Estimated Price Range
- $700 — $1,100
Transaction History
- Used
- New
Date Condition Asking Final 10/23/2017 Good $1,000 $1,000 9/26/2017 Excellent $1,399 $1,325 8/29/2017 Very Good $900 $750 4/25/2017 Very Good $1,069 $1,069 2/3/2017 Excellent $1,199.99 $1,050 9/7/2016 Excellent $1,095 $1,095 3/6/2016 Excellent $1,150 $1,150 2/14/2016 Very Good $1,200 $1,050 9/19/2015 Very Good $1,400 $1,230 2/7/2015 Very Good $1,150 $1,050
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"Well, in 1968 I had a pre CBS Twin Reverb with JBL D120Fs........how I wish I still did........"
pre cbs would be pre '65, but yeah Fender was putting JBL's in some Twins going back to their debut in late '63 early '64.
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I like that 66 BF Princeton non reverb you sold me so much, thats what got me thinking about another one, but silverface.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Wildcat,
That JBL is a later JBL 10 (Ceramic instead of Alnico, IIRC) and by 75 Fender was using Dadoed baffles (probably explains the mod). It is probably a great sounding amp, but with the modded baffle. I would suggest looking for a more unmolested example, in particular one from 72 or earlier, when removable baffles were still being used.
I have a 64 Non reverb Princeton with a late 60's JBL D-110f (Alnico). It sounds great.
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The first Fenders to get JBL were the "Showman" prototypes that Leo Fender custom made for Dick Dale. Dale was complaining that he couldn't get enough clean volume from his Fenders, so Leo designed the first 85 watt twin platform as a head and called it the "Showman" in honor of Dale. The standard speakers that Fender had used in the past couldn't take the power, so Leo went to JBL for help. They ended up using the D-120 in Dale's amps. Those were the first Fenders to use JBL and Fender started making them an option in Twin Reverbs after that. Dale claims that he specifically asked for the version of the speaker with the aluminum dust caps because he wanted to hear the edge on his pick attack. What's funny about this is that many people complain that they don't like the harshness of the JBL speakers that comes from the aluminum dome. Those JBL are either a love it or hate it speaker.
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I have a few comments about that PR amp that might help to keep you to decide if you think the price is right or not.
First, the PR never came with a JBL option. That speaker was never a factory item for that amp. The standard speaker was either a 10" by Oxford or Chicago Telephone. Before becoming too enthusiastic about it having a JBL, get the model number off of the speaker and look up what it is. Chances are that it could either be a bass driver from a pro audio, studio monitor, or home speaker application and not a musical instrument speaker. The difference is that in the industry the former are called "sound reproducers" while the latter are "sound producers." The difference is that the frequency response of a bass reproduction driver that gets crossed over in the midbass region is different from that of a full range guitar speaker. There's a chance that the speaker might not sound all that good in the application even though it is a "JBL," so you need to do some additional homework to determine exactly what you'd be getting. There are some JBL that would work better than others.
Second, that baffle mod is a hack job. It was done improperly and it decreases the value of that amp. When Fender used plywood baffles the bigger amps had no problem supporting heavier speakers like the dual 12" JBL or EV drivers in Twins. When Fender moved to particle board baffles they sometimes had problem handling the weight of those heavy 12" JBL and EV speakers and would warp. (It was never such a problem with single 10" speakers on a small baffle that traversed a small span.) Most people would replace the particleboard baffles with plywood baffles when installing heavier speakers. Early on this was easy because the baffles were mounted with screws on cleats. In the late SF era (amp in question) the cleats were eliminated and the particle board baffles were glued into a rabbet in the cabinet when the cabinet was assembled. Those late SF amps are decidedly inconvenient as subjects for a baffle exchange. The only ways to properly replace an original baffle is to: a) cut out the baffle as close as possible to the edges, disassemble the cabinet, route out the rabbet joint and reassemble the cabinet around the new plywood baffle, or b) cut out the baffle as close as possible to the edges and then cut it smooth along the cabinet, and install a new baffle using cleats to the cabinet. A less professional way to mount the baffle would be to cut down the baffle leaving an inch or two of material along the edges and using the old baffle as a cleat for the new baffle. That's not a good method, as it still places the weight of the speakers on particleboard.
It looks like that amp used the last method, where a plywood baffle was attached to the original particleboard baffle, using the original baffle as a cleat. Someone probably tried mounting a 12" speaker in the amp at one time by enlarging the speaker hole, and then decided to go back to a smaller speaker with the 10" JBL.
Third, that price is on the strong side for a "correct" vintage ap. Before buying it I'd verify that it has original iron and original innards, and that it's been properly serviced with power supply capacitor replacement. These are potential factors that give you negotiating power. If the re-cap hasn't been done on a 40 year old amp then it'll need to be done soon. You can expect to pay $80-100 plus parts just to have a simple re-cap done that doesn't involve any extra diagnostic work in the event that the amp has another problem.
I really like Princeton Reverbs but I can't get enthusiastic about paying over $1000 for one. I've built a lot of these and IMO you can build a new amp from parts that sounds just like an old one. The most critical component is going to be the speaker, and that's already something that's in question. Ultimately the decision about whether to buy new or vintage is entirely up to you, and depends on what you really want. For some people cosmetics and the logos are very important, to others not so much.
Good luck.
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That looks like it's in about the right neighborhood for that amp. The speaker is not necessarily an "upgrade". For sure in terms of value a JBL D110 would be, but that looks like an E110 (later, ceramic magnet), which probably doesn't add vaule. Price/Value aside, JBL's are more efficient and brighter sounding than the typical PR speaker (Jensen (some alnico, some ceramic), Utah, Oxford, or CTS, depending on year). Not everybody views that as an upgrade, since for many a big part of a PR's charm is its greater warmth and earlier breakup than, say, a DR. I have a 78 with a recent Jensen C10Q. I wouldn't change a thing about it, and would not want a JBL in this amp (had a D130 in another amp, and was happy with that, FWIW). TL;DR: Great amp, well worth having, but I'd bargain a little. Originally Posted by Wildcat
John
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Originally Posted by BeBob
According to the guy who invented the JBL D series (Harvey Gerst, who used to show up regularly on usenet and various audio forums), that's not quite what happened. See this for an example of Harvey saying Dale was not quite right. (Specifically, the D130F 15" speaker came first, not the 12, and not at Dick Dale's behest). I don't know if this is actually true or not, but it's a point-counterpoint session that has been going on online for quite a while.
John
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Great post Bob, I do think the speaker in this amp is a guitar speaker (probably a JBL E-110) and I think you are spot on regarding the modded baffle. Originally Posted by BeBob
I was around in the mid 70's and IIRC, a JBL or upgraded Jensen (C-10?) could be special ordered with a Princeton reverb from the factory. I doubt that this JBL is original to this amp and think that it is overpriced in it's condition.
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The speaker grill is held on with velcro. The prospective buyer might want to pop the grill off and get a look at the front of the baffle to see if it's been modded or damaged.
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That was an interesting read, thanks. Yeah, the old guy seems to have mis-remembered a thing or two, that nobody has mentioned -- like getting blonde tolex because black wasn't available. It was tweed and brown before blonde, black came later. Maybe his memory was failing, maybe he just mis-spoke. Originally Posted by John A.
I don't know whether the 12" or 15" came first, but we do know that the Showman 12 and Showman 15 both were both on the market from '60-'63, and they first came with single speakers before the 2x15 Double Showman came along in '62-'63. I don't know whether JBL produced the 12 or the 15 first, or whether Dale used the 12 or 15 first. Those are 2 different questions. Does it matter? Not really. But we do know that Dale liked the aluminum domed JBL over the other speakers that were available at the time.
I enjoyed the video and the usenet posts. thanks again.
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My understanding was that during the BF era you could get a Jensen C series or an Oxford, and that during the SF era you would get either Oxford or CTS because they were no longer using Jensen at that time. I think the Utah were pretty much limited to the higher powered amps, but I could be wrong on that. Regarding the JBL, the most sought after ones are indeed the ones with AlNiCo magnets, and the JBL shown in the photo doesn't seem period-correct for that amp. I wouldn't pay more for that amp because it has a JBL, and I would offer less because of the baffle hack. IMO the seller thinks that his amp is more special than it really is. Originally Posted by John A.
You make a very good point about not everyone liking the tone of the JBL, especially in the smaller amps. Most people who wanted the JBL were after clean high volume with bigger amps, and the reason that people tend to prefer the little amps like the PR today is because they give up the goods earlier than the bigger amps. Putting a loud/clean speaker in them tends to work against that objective. I also agree that the recent Jensen C10Q sounds pretty good when broken in, in keeping with the amp's character. It's a good inexpensive new speaker option that's consistent with the tone that most people are looking for out of that amp.
A lot of the decision would depend upon what the OP really wants out of his amp. If he's after a vintage amp, then the speaker and baffle are working against this particular specimen. There's room for negotiation, in spite of what the seller thinks. It may be best to keep looking. If the OP just wants the PR sound and doesn't care about having a vintage amp, I think that the new production PR sound pretty good and a used one can be had for a lot less money. Now that they're being reissued you can get something that has the same circuit on a PCB that has great cosmetics and do a speaker swap if needed. IMO the speaker changes the tone of the amp much more appreciably than the difference between a vintage and a current production circuit, which are built to the same schematic. The price differential between vintage and a used reissue can pay for a lot of speaker swapping.
Personally I've been passing on vintage PR ever since the BF ones went over $1000. IMO they're just inexpensive little low powered amps and today's prices are too expensive for what you get. The fact that Twin Reverbs are cheaper than Princeton Reverbs on the used market means that amplifier price is no longer correlated with power, the way it used to be. It is a sign that the bedroom/basement players are driving the amp market by bidding up the prices on the small amps.
One other thing that I would add -- as much as I love the tone of the PR circuit, I'm not especially fond of the smaller Type 8 reverb tanks that they use. The Type 8 tanks use a shorter spring length that limits the depth of the reverb. To overcome this the Type 8 tanks added a 3rd string pair so that the tank has 3 pair of springs in it. The Type 4 tanks were used in the wider amps, from the Deluxe Reverb on up. The 4 tanks had only 2 spring pairs, but the pairs were longer and gave the reverb more depth. That's why the reverb on a Princeton Reverb will never sound like it does on a Twin Reverb or even a Deluxe Reverb. It's the tank that makes the difference.
hthLast edited by BeBob; 11-27-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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All I know is that the original speakers all say Fender on 'em ;-). Originally Posted by BeBob
I agree 100% with that. The reissues sound great IMO, and I prefer the look of BF to SF. IMO, the only real reason not to get a RI is the repairability challenge that the PCB construction poses. Tech's charge more to fix 'em, and they all eventually need some degree of fixing. Originally Posted by BeBob
I think it might be the opposite for some -- the big Fenders are too hard to move, so they stay in people's bedrooms. OTOH, for those who actually take an amp out of the home, a PR is more practical than a TR. I live in NYC (what's a basement?) and that's why I traded away a brown Pro for a PR. It's much more practical for the playing I do (occasional gigs in small venues, lots of living room jams), and I prefer the sound. I have yet to find myself in a setting where it wasn't enough amp. Twins are harder to seel around here. Originally Posted by BeBob
John
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then why are we seeing (what looks like) a 2" plywood ring around the speaker...in photo #1 through the grillcloth??!!... Originally Posted by Wildcat
installing a 12" speaker in a princeton was a popular mod in the 70's...boogie'd!
cheers
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ps- jbl alnico 15 came first
here's good bit about jbl's..i also remember when harvey gerst who worked for jbl in the early 60's used to contribute info to the various guitar/speaker forums..lots of good info from the source out there..google him
Loud and Clear: The Story of JBL & Fender – HARMAN Professional Solutions Insights
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 11-27-2017 at 08:03 PM. Reason: sp-
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John, you must not be the John A from TalkBass who uses a Super Twin converted to a bass rig. Originally Posted by John A.
I get a chuckle when guitarists whine that a Twin Reverb is too heavy to carry. A stock SF Twin Reverb weighs in at 69 lb. Compare that to an SVT Fridge, which weighs in at 140 lb -- twice as much -- just for the cabinet, and the head alone weighs in at 85 lb (16 lb more than the Twin Reverb). My SVT-II Pro head in a rack case weighs over 100 lb. After I finish rolling the fridge into position I have to do a dead lift / military press to put that 100 lb head on top of the cab. Think about throwing a "lightweight" Twin Reverb on top of a fridge and that helps to put it into perspective.
Now that I'm getting older I prefer to have some help, I'd rather not do it alone. But still, I don't quite understand why the guitarists complain so much about how heavy the Twin Reverb is, when bass players take that weight and more, and throw it up on top of a 'fridge cabinet. My Twin Reverb has a pair of EV-SRO-12 in it, so it's heavier than a stock TR. I don't notice it, but I guess it all depends on what you're used to. To me, my Brown Pro at ~50 lb doesn't seem all that heavy, but it is a full 20 lb heavier than a Princeton Reverb so I see where you're coming from. There are a lot of guys who think an LP is too heavy. Most of them don't play a bass.
I think they're harder to sell everywhere. Today it's a rare event that a guitar player needs an amp that's as big as a TR. Those amps were designed to play huge rooms when PA systems weren't very good. PA systems have changed a lot since the 1970s, to the point that every large venue is going to have a FOH system, and a sound guy that would be happy to mic your Princeton Reverb and run you through the PA mixing console. They like players with small amps because they control them in the mix a lot easier than the guy with a Twin or a Marshall stack who is always too loud.Twins are harder to seel around here.
I guess it was wrong on my part to say that the bedroom players are driving the market. They're not doing it all by themselves. The changes in PA tech have played a huge role as well. the result is that watts aren't as important as they used to be so people are choosing smaller amps. The result is that the prices have narrowed more than they should have on the reissues (they're overcharging on the small amps as the big amps cost a lot more to make but don't cost a lot more to buy) and the prices have inverted on the vintage market such that the big amps are cheaper than the little amps.
but I still like a Twin Reverb. It's one of the few Fender amps that has a midrange control on both channels, and I find a Mid control to be incredibly useful -- especially for jazz guitar. There are lots of smart guys who downsize their twins by pulling a pair of tubes, and running the amp with one speaker that's impedance matched for two tubes. that way you get a Pro Reverb with Midrange on both channels at a fraction of the price of a Pro Reverb. But for some people it's still too heavy.
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Nope, that's definitely not me. There's no way a Twin or a Super Twin would be allowed in my home by the Director of Domestic Space Allocation, even if I wanted one. Originally Posted by BeBob
I've helped carry an SVT. Fool me once ... Originally Posted by BeBob
I get a chuckle when guitarists whine that a Twin Reverb is too heavy to carry. A stock SF Twin Reverb weighs in at 69 lb. Compare that to an SVT Fridge, which weighs in at 140 lb -- twice as much -- just for the cabinet, and the head alone weighs in at 85 lb (16 lb more than the Twin Reverb). My SVT-II Pro head in a rack case weighs over 100 lb. After I finish rolling the fridge into position I have to do a dead lift / military press to put that 100 lb head on top of the cab. Think about throwing a "lightweight" Twin Reverb on top of a fridge and that helps to put it into perspective.
You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. Originally Posted by BeBob
Now that I'm getting older I prefer to have some help, I'd rather not do it alone. But still, I don't quite understand why the guitarists complain so much about how heavy the Twin Reverb is, when bass players take that weight and more, and throw it up on top of a 'fridge cabinet. My Twin Reverb has a pair of EV-SRO-12 in it, so it's heavier than a stock TR. I don't notice it, but I guess it all depends on what you're used to. To me, my Brown Pro at ~50 lb doesn't seem all that heavy, but it is a full 20 lb heavier than a Princeton Reverb so I see where you're coming from. There are a lot of guys who think an LP is too heavy. Most of them don't play a bass.
TBH I've never been that big a Twin fan. Every once in a while I run into a really nice BF or BF'ed SF, and I like it, but most of the time I struggle to get a sound I can deal with out of 'em. For a long time, NYC rehearsal studios would have a Marshall and a Twin, and maybe something like a JC 120, and with those choices I'd take the Twin, but places nowadays have a lot more amps to choose from, and I'll generally pick something else. Originally Posted by BeBob
John
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just for info
for you aficionados who dig those classic old alnico speakers ie. jbl d series, altecs and ev's....make sure to take a look at the celestion alnico golds, if a modern replacement is ever needed...truly great speakers...in that hallowed vintage tradition...can't recommend them enough
cheers
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Here you go -- this is what $650 in cash would buy you in 2016 in a small town Illinois music store: Generic 1970s master volume twin with SROs... in pretty decent shape. Originally Posted by Hammertone
It's amazing to me that I can get this much amp for about half as much money as the asking price for the Princeton Reverb in this thread. Nobody wants big amps any more, and those that do tend to poo-poo the high powered twins with the master volumes.
I have several Twin Reverbs. When I find them in a music store priced like this one, they tend to follow me home.
There are still some great deals out there.
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