1959 Gibson ES-175 VOS vs 1982 Gibson ES-175

[Dutchbopper]

New Blog entry.

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: 1959 Gibson ES 175 VOS versus 1982 ES 175

Have fun.

Regards,

DB

[Mark M.]

I'm still haunted by the VOS I played several months ago at Dave's Guitar Shop. It was identical to the one you tried. And, it's still there. <sigh>

[floatingpickup]

I think the VOS 175 is a great guitar. Like Dutchbopper, I have compared one to my original vintage 175's and the VOS was very close to the original.
Keith

[jads57]

And also very close in price as well!

[Broyale]

Laminates, meh.

[Dutchbopper]

Laminates, meh.

You're kidding right?

DB

[Broyale]

You're kidding right?

DB

No, why would I be kidding?

[Dutchbopper]

Because I can't take a reply like that seriously.

DB

[Broyale]

I don't take plywood guitars seriously, which is why I asked.

[Dutchbopper]

Well, one thing is for sure. I will never take you seriously again. Your ignorance is stunning.

Ciao.

DB

[Franz 1997]

I don't take plywood guitars seriously, which is why I asked.

Why post then?

[jzucker]

I don't take plywood guitars seriously, which is why I asked.

Wow, what a dumb statement. Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Jim Hall, even Pat Martino.

Sigh...This place just gets worse and worse....

[mr. beaumont]

I don't take plywood guitars seriously, which is why I asked.

You feelin' okay? That's CRAY CRAY

[Broyale]

Wow, what a dumb statement. Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Jim Hall, even Pat Martino.

Sigh...This place just gets worse and worse....

Actually, lemme clarify my statement. I don't like the 175. The epitome of hype over substance. It is the most overrated, overhyped guitar in jazz, hands down. I don't care who played what. Joe Pass had a drug problem, too...should I indulge that also? Tonally similar to a school desk with strings on it. Construction-wise, no different than a mid-range Artcore. If I must apologize to anyone, its to the Artcore guys---I really like those guitars and appreciate the value they represent for the cost. The 175, on the other hand, is really just an overpriced Artcore, when in reality, Ibanez pretty much owns Gibson when it comes to the laminate archtops these days.

[jzucker]

Joe Pass had a drug problem, too...should I indulge that also?

what-eva...

[Dutchbopper]

I never participate in discussions here for this exact reason. But your replies are so outrageous that I will make an exception. I was so stunned by your latest reply that I went through some of your earlier replies in other threads to get some grip of where they came from. And then I found out you started playing guitar 4 years ago when you were 30. Mmmmm .... in real life opinions (content) is often valued within context. Well, we have that now.

No disrespect meant but ... is there a slight, remote chance that you may be just a tad ... little bit ... inexperienced?

DB

[jzucker]

I never participate in discussions here for this exact reason. But your replies are so outrageous that I will make an exception. I was so stunned by your latest reply that I went through some of your earlier replies in other threads to get some grip of where they came from. And then I found out you started playing guitar 4 years ago when you were 30. Mmmmm .... in real life opinions (content) is often valued within context. Well, we have that now.

No disrespect meant but ... is there a slight, remote chance that you may be just a tad ... little bit ... inexperienced?

DB

The reason the internet is the great equalizer is that a guy with a sofa guitar collection who plays a 1/2 hour a day can argue with guys who have dedicated their lives to practicing and playing jazz.

[Dutchbopper]

The reason the internet is the great equalizer is that a guy with a sofa guitar collection who plays a 1/2 hour a day can argue with guys who have dedicated their lives to practicing and playing jazz.

Yes, this is a serious problem on all (jazz) guitar fora that I have been on (and abandoned in the end) for over almost 15 years. Everybody is the expert. All opinions are equal. It's the main reason why I usually stay away from discussions. Fortunately this works different in real life (mostly).

DB

[Broyale]

I never participate in discussions here for this exact reason. But your replies are so outrageous that I will make an exception. I was so stunned by your latest reply that I went through some of your earlier replies in other threads to get some grip of where they came from. And then I found out you started playing guitar 4 years ago when you were 30. Mmmmm .... in real life opinions (content) is often valued within context. Well, we have that now.

No disrespect meant but ... is there a slight, remote chance that you may be just a tad ... little bit ... inexperienced?

DB

I feel my "inexperience" gives me a clarity about these sort of things. At what point am I supposed to become a true believer? I mean, one of my first gear threads was asking, in earnest, what was the fundamental difference between an a 175 and an Artcore build-wise that would warrant such an absurd price difference. No one had a real, substantive answer beyond "we don't know, really".

[Dutchbopper]

Read this for starters. It is not written from a buider's view and won't give you all the answers but it's a start:

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: carved versus laminate archtops

DB

[teleboli]

Again?

[Broyale]

Read this for starters. It is not written from a buider's view and won't give you all the answers but it's a start:

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: carved versus laminate archtops

DB

I get all that, players scared of feedback and whatnot.
Laminates have their place, I cannot debate that fact, BUT, I still wonder how people can place the 175 (from any year) on a pedestal when clearly Ibanez has the laminate thing down cold. I mean, for chrissakes, is there any legit reason for the gimped pickup placement on the 175? That was my initial turn-off to the 175. Ibanez puts 'em under the fingerboard, even on their lowest of the low end models. And yeah, I know Ibanez makes 'em in China.

[newsense]

...... in earnest, what was the fundamental difference between an a 175 and an Artcore build-wise that would warrant such an absurd price difference.

Its a very good and valid question; the answer should at least refer to (i) labour rates in the countries of manufacture (ii) historic reputation (iii) current product quality and (iv) musical attributes such as playability and tone. As I have never played a 175, I cannot answer the last two parts.

[Dutchbopper]

High quality laminate guitars (I do not call them plywood) are built by the best of builders. Ibanez' top archtops are all laminates. Holst, Sadowsky, Heritage, Benedetto etc. .. they all build laminate guitars. Even more expensive ones than the 175.

For me, it's not about construction, feedback resistance or price only. All my favourite archtop sounds were simply made on laminate guitars. The list of world class players preferring laminate guitars is endless (Charlie Christian, Tal Farlow, Joe Pass, Jim Hall, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, George Benson, Pat Martino, Jimmy Raney, Doug Raney, Pat Metheny, Jonathan Kreisberg, Martijn van Iterson, Jesse van Ruller). I have owned two carved top guitars and traded them in because I actually prefer the sound of laminates.

I have played carved tops that I think sounded really horrible. Tinny, plinky and trebly. Some of them were useless in a practical sense even (feedback monsters). I do not need a guitar that sounds great on the couch only. There is no way a laminate guitar is inferior to a carved one only because it is ... laminate. Many people actually prefer the way they sound.

DB

[roger taylor]

Your inexperience gives you the same clarity of an inexperienced doctor. Sure, you can render an opinion, but it's worth about the same. Actually, if you aren't regularly gigging jazz dates, you're more like a medical student.