Are K&M Heli stands truly safe for Nitro?

**2bornot2bop** · 04-12-2014, 02:46 PM

A visit to Joe V. revealed he uses K&M stands. So, I picked up a few...R they truly safe for nitro? Have you any personal experience with them?

**2bornot2bop** · 04-12-2014, 06:03 PM

Da? Nyet?

**2bornot2bop** · 04-14-2014, 02:15 PM

So 2b is the first here among thousands to have purchased K&M Heli stands? I'd never have guessed that.

2b's been doing some research on what's safe for nitro...here's a post from a chemist:

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/fo...nish-question/

"Ok, I'm one of the geaky guys that majored in chemistry. What do you want to know?

Things you want to avoid with a nitrocellulose finish:

Nail polish - acetone is great solvent for NC. Also MEK etc. Anything with Ketones listed is BAD!
Alcohol (rubbing or drinking) - They are great co-solvents for NC resins.
Colognes and hairspray - Again alcohols are used extensively. Let the girls be charmed by your music, not your use of Axe or Old Spice! Hairspray is usually a Polyvinyl acetate polymer (see below!) dissolved in stuff like ethanol and dimethylether.

Vinyl - This is where most of the issue with guitar stands and hangers come from. Between the vinyl, the chlorine (PVC is polyvinyl chloride) and the plasticizers (phthalates) used, it can permanently soften a guitar finish. This includes the backs of some guitar straps!!!! That's why most are either leather or polyester/polypropylene fabric. I also avoid latex, or anything that will seal out air. That helps to concentrate anything that comes in contact with the finish. NOTE: Plasticizers can be fugitive, which means they can migrate. You can't use cotton with a vinyl rubber stand and make it good!

Neoprene rubber tubing - Neoprene is Dupont's trade name for polychloroprene (there's that nasty word again...)

Body oils! - Yup, your sweaty, greasy, clammy hands can damage your instrument. Armpits can be especially bad. You often see the finish dulled on the upper part where it tucks under the arm. That's why you want to wipe down your guitar after you use it.

Many hand and body lotions can soften the finish as well.

Good guitar stands should not dissolve the finish. Most these days use Velveteen rubber which is supposed to be safe for nitro. They certainly won't dissolve the finish in an hour or two.

BTW, Nitrocellulose is very susceptible to cracking when subjected to fast temperature changes. This can be mitigated somewhat through the correct formulation! Especially thick films are the most susceptible."

**oldane** · 04-14-2014, 02:37 PM

FWIW, I have a couple of K&M stands (not the Heli model, though) which I bought from Thomann. Thomann normally labels stands as "Safe for nitro" if they are considered to be that. Mine are not labelled so, but they have not caused any discoloration in the 5-6 years I have had them.

**jdazey** · 04-14-2014, 08:49 PM

Thanks for looking into this. I was just checking out Atlas stands and noticed that Josh uses neoprene. I don't know what I've got on the stands I have. I'll have to check. Time to build my own??

Joe

**Patrick2** · 04-14-2014, 09:00 PM

Here's the only stand I use. Got over 2 dozen of them . .. and they're each holding a precious and beloved piece of music making art. Nitro friendly. I've had guitars sitting in them for over 5 years . . no problems!

On-Stage GS7143B Flip It Guitar Stand at zZounds

**Jehu** · 04-14-2014, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by jdazey

Time to build my own??

Do eet!

I made this one not too long ago, and used felt. Seems to do the trick.

Are K&M Heli stands truly safe for Nitro?-gstand1-jpg

Are K&M Heli stands truly safe for Nitro?-gstand3-jpg

**Klatu** · 04-14-2014, 09:50 PM

That looks great. What inspired you to build that design?

**Spook410** · 04-14-2014, 10:44 PM

Just to note that 'it can happen', I had some wallhanging stands. Didn't even have guitars hanging too long.. certainly not years, and had the finish damaged. Two burnt through spots.. one on each side where the stand held the guitar.

While we're on the topic, aren't you supposed to watch out for leather straps in the case as well?

**Klatu** · 04-14-2014, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

While we're on the topic, aren't you supposed to watch out for leather straps in the case as well?

I've heard that, too.

**Jehu** · 04-15-2014, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Klatu

That looks great. What inspired you to build that design?

Honestly, the shape of the scraps I had left after building an amp stand.

**helios** · 04-15-2014, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Nail polish - acetone is great solvent for NC. Also MEK etc. Anything with Ketones listed is BAD!
Alcohol (rubbing or drinking) - They are great co-solvents for NC resins.
Colognes and hairspray - Again alcohols are used extensively. Let the girls be charmed by your music, not your use of Axe or Old Spice! Hairspray is usually a Polyvinyl acetate polymer (see below!) dissolved in stuff like ethanol and dimethylether.
"

Hi 2Born,
It's been decades since I took organic, but I believe acetone (nail polish) is a ketone, as is MEK. Jeff

**2bornot2bop** · 04-15-2014, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jehu

Do eet!

I made this one not too long ago, and used felt. Seems to do the trick.

nice job...

What glue is used to adhere the felt, and what stain is used that won't react with the guitars nitro finish?

**2bornot2bop** · 04-15-2014, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

FWIW, I have a couple of K&M stands (not the Heli model, though) which I bought from Thomann. Thomann normally labels stands as "Safe for nitro" if they are considered to be that. Mine are not labelled so, but they have not caused any discoloration in the 5-6 years I have had them.

thanks, but even the K&M Heli that I bought, after Joe V. suggested them safe, I bought 4 of 'em and then went to the website and their claim says: not recommended for guitars with nitro laquer finish

http://www.thomann.de/gb/km_17581_heli_schwarz.htm

so I'm back to square one, or continuing to use my cotton towels beneath each archtop. but now I have 4 more stands that I don't need...ouch

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Here's the only stand I use. Got over 2 dozen of them . .. and they're each holding a precious and beloved piece of music making art. Nitro friendly. I've had guitars sitting in them for over 5 years . . no problems!

On-Stage GS7143B Flip It Guitar Stand at zZounds

What type rubber is used? the write-up copy doesn't list it.

not that I don't trust U.

**Jehu** · 04-15-2014, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

nice job...

What glue is used to adhere the felt, and what stain is used that won't react with the guitars nitro finish?

The glue is just PVA wood glue. It's not soaked through the felt, but to be extra sure you'd probably want to use something else to avoid problems with nitro.

The finish is shellac with a beeswax topcoat. It doesn't come into contact with the guitar. (And it's not actually that bright orange... I think the pic is oversaturated.)

**Jabberwocky** · 04-15-2014, 04:49 PM

Nitro safe: http://www.axehandle.net/images/girl-2.jpg

**Jabberwocky** · 04-15-2014, 04:51 PM

JGF-safe: Wood Guitar Stands by Take a Stand

**2bornot2bop** · 04-15-2014, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

JGF-safe: Wood Guitar Stands by Take a Stand

$400 a stand? That's out of my league.

**Jabberwocky** · 04-15-2014, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

$400 a stand? That's out of my league.

Buzzer. Foul call. You may soon see yourself suspended or even banned for even mentioning $$$ if the neo-goose-steppers get their way. There is a seller behind that stand, you know...