Binding repair on a $50k archtop guitar?

[2bornot2bop]

So, you've an archtop whose edge finish has suffered due to a full edge binding replacement...all of it...pulled and replaced. I learned that the most minute sections of spruce stick to the binding as it's removed...who among you personally knows someone whose qualified to have made such a repair?

The archtop in question has a value of $50k.

Can you imagine attempting to back fill the grain pattern/ width / shade/ to a top's edge that of course took a visual hit while removing the binding? We're talking over 400 fill lines between top and back that have to match with the grain lines of the top.

I just learned about this restoration process y'day...anyway, has anyone here attempted such a repair on a very valuable archtop? Chris???

[PTChristopher2]

Hi Bop,

Not sure exactly what the angle is here. Do you own this guitar? Is this work in progress. Is this completed work? For what reason does the subject come up?

Anyway:

>>> I learned that the most minute sections of spruce stick to the binding as it's removed

Ooooh. In my opinion, this is not necessarily the case (unless Kenny Burell told this to a forum member while asking his personal advice,...).

I have removed binding in three ways:

- Yank it off. Well really more like a careful seam-scoring, hand cutting, and pulling.

- Better living through chemistry. If it is a total re-finish, then some solvent along the seam can help remove celluloid or ABS reasonably well. But I have only done this on maple. I'd be concerned about wicking the slurry up into the spruce and goofing up the eventual re-finish.

- Cut it away with a router. These days I have gone to a Dremel tool with a special wooden base/guide. This can seem like the most dangerous, but it can also leave a remarkably clean channel. You do have to fool with which cutting tool you use and the RPM to avoid gumming the adhesive or binding material and making a mess. This is by far the best way if trying to preserve the finish to some extent.

I have never seen a binding repair in which an entire perimeter of spruce was damaged to an extent that needed the sort of repair you describe (or maybe postulate, hard to tell from the post if we are talking past, present, or hypothetical.)

>>> Can you imagine attempting to back fill the grain pattern/ width / shade/ to a top's edge that of course took a visual hit while removing the binding?


No. Well I guess I can imagine it, but in my opinion the cost of such an effort would be in the thousands unless someone has either staggeringly low costs, or is somehow inspired to make this effort for questionable renumeration.

Others may feel quite differently.

I have done a pretty good amount of tricky grain restoration, and it is quite difficult. Even if you get it looking very good, making it so it has a decent chance of aging without odd color drifts or seasonal expansion/contraction artifacts is extremely difficult. Considerable experience with materials and methods (so MANY goofs in one's past), and a thorough review or reasonable expectations with the owner are needed in my opinion.

I have never done anything so repetitively difficult (except for teenage daughters) or as large-scaled as this sounds.

I understand that fixing 400 grain lines is the same as me fixing 10 lines. But considering the teeth gnashing and care needed for a small scale fix, this one sounds like a lifestyle choice that may be beyond the interest of many.

It would be interesting to see an objective (so not so much of the recent excessively interpretive theater) view of the results, and a follow up after a year.

And if there is partial re-finish involved, then a careful look at the colors used in the re-finish and a look for metamerism troubles. (Which could set off the guy who posted a while back about color being just like sound. And of course Ibanez colors are perfect,...)

Still wondering about the angle on all this.

Chris

[PTChristopher2]

With no pics it is hard to say, bit one does wonder if a slight deepening of the troubled channel would remove a significant amount of the shredded spruce issues?

[2bornot2bop]

hey Chris!

No angle...$50k archtops are way above 2b's retired pay grade.

Y'day I was listening to my personal luthier's story about a restoration he's close to finishing...total binding replacement. And due to the fact this prized archtop is a D'Aquisto New Yorker the owner of course does NOT want a top refinish.

My luthier's goin' on about what happens when the binding was removed, saying minute, but noticeable, pieces of spruce near the guitars edge come off with the binding. And since the top isn't being refinished it's a piece of work adding fill material to the top edge, along with matching grain lines...both shade and width.

I asked my luthier, where, or who does one go to to learn how to perform such a restoration? His reply: That's a good question....I'd like to know who to ask...GULP! Not done...the work goes on.

[fumblefingers]

I'd ask Monteleone, Benedetto, or Buscarino.

[jads57]

Chris Mirabella has done quite a few restorations on D'A's. Check his website and Facebook page for further info

[PTChristopher2]

Ah.

Any idea how the binding was removed?

As for whom to ask, yeah tricky one. Gotta find someone to actually have the ability to do the work, then the subset (maybe VERY sub) with the inclination to do the work.

Last fall I was talking with two Boston guys who started a coupe of years before me and have very successfully remained one-man skilled luthiers around Berklee.

Talking with the one I know better, we lamented the way one can bleed $$$ with even not-so-tricky finish repairs. Nevermind this sort of thing.

I still wonder why one would not take a super-thin layer away with a router. Is he concerned with chipping lacquer? I would be. But with the right bit, RPM, and transport rate this is controllable.

All in my opinion - which is easy to give at some distance from this very tricky situation.

To paraphrase:

"Everybody has a plan until the lacquer starts chipping."

Chris

[Silentwiz]

Michael Peters in El Segundo is world class

[QAman]

John Monteleone is the only person I would trust with this work. Having him perform the work will retain the value of the guitar.

[PTChristopher2]

Good point Steve. A collector will value the name association even if they are numb to the actual work involved.

[coolvinny]

Didn't Steve Andersen cut his archtop teeth repairing DA's and the other DA's? I'd trust him with the work. Also, as you live in the Pacific North West, I'd think you want to avoid shipping a guitar like that around - another reason to work with someone in Seattle.

I do know a guy in Vancouver who is first-class, but he's not well-known and it sounds like you want a "name" guy.

[cosmic gumbo]

It sounds like a blonde that needs to become a sunburst.

[Scot Tremblay]

I've done this kind of restoration, albeit not on an archtop, and I fully admit to not being in the subset "with the inclination to do the work." I have an 1820/30's instrument in the shop at the moment with ivory binding which needs to be removed (intact if at all possible), instrument repaired/restored and original binding put back in place...

With a little care, time, patience and technique one can remove the binding with minimal lifting of the wood fibers or damage to the finish. However, for the most part it's not something to be undertaken by those who might be faint of heart, especially when dealing with an instrument in the $50k range.

I think the advice to speak with Steve Anderson is good. He proves to be an amicable guy, in my limited experience talking with him, and I believe he has ample experience as coolvinny suggests.

[snoskier63]

PTChris, I bring my guitars to one of the guys you speak of - the one directly across the street from Berklee. He does great work!

As for who I would trust with such a job, the list would be no more than 2-3 people long. Of course, I am not likely to have a 50K guitar ever, but I can sympathize with the considerations in tending to such a delicate project.

[fumblefingers]

There is another guy who used to be in Cali but moved north, perhaps to Oregon? His name escapes me at the moment... A fine luthier who made one of the Chinery blue guitars.

edit: Megas.

[edh]

I would trust PTChris.

[Hammertone]

Chris Mirabella has done quite a few restorations on D'A's. Check his website and Facebook page for further info

Ooh, ooh, it's Jeopardy! I can play: "Whose career and reputation are based on restoring D'As?"
What do I win?

…[ ]...I still wonder why one would not take a super-thin layer away with a router. Is he concerned with chipping lacquer? I would be. But with the right bit, RPM, and transport rate this is controllable. All in my opinion - which is easy to give at some distance from this very tricky situation.
To paraphrase "Everybody has a plan until the lacquer starts chipping."
Chris

M2B!

If ever there was a time for it:

[fws6]

this is the DA new yorker in Lemuel 's guitars right ? This one: My first authentic D'Aquisto New Yorker experience...


IMO the more work you do on it (fill in wood; refinish or touch up) ; the lesser the value will be no matter who does the work. I would replace the poor bindings with and live with some minor imperfections on the edges; rather than refinishing

[PTChristopher2]

[edh]>>> I would trust PTChris.

Har-har. Definitely not soliciting work on the forum.

I share your trust in that I certainly trust myself to lose about $5,000 (if only in 'opportunity cost') on such a tricky-aesthetics fix.

Would love to see pics of the current situation though. Sometimes it is far from as dire as it may seem or sound.

>>> this is the DA new yorker in Lemuel 's guitars right ?

If it is this one, then I still think the binding width can be increased very slightly to greatly improve the situation. The burst color is easier to match than a blonde. And as odd as it may sound, a lighter perimeter burst can be easier to match than a dark perimeter. Yes the dark hides more evil, but matching a dark brown is very tricky. Lots of trouble with translucence in the original clear, and metamerism in the new dark brown vs. the old.

This does not look all that hopeless to me. But as mentioned, this is web talk. Whatever the actual person proposing the actual work says counts far more.

In my opinion.

Chris

[fws6]

>I still think the binding width can be increased

I would very be reluctant to do so; I think the DA collectors would kill the value for that. Id feel it would be better to have the slight imperfections at the edge and keep the specs for the binding as it originally had

Bindings are bad on many DAq guitars, and collectors are much more 'forgiving' for such issues as they know it comes with this particular builder/instrument always. They rather have a guitar with a honest explainable repair ; than with cover-up work changing the specs of the instrument by adding a different color or binding on the edge.

On such an expensive instrument do the work minimally invasive. My own DAquisto New Yorker also has several finsih imperfections that I wanted to cover up when I first got it, but everyone advised me against it. I am glad I didnt

>this is web talk

Sure ;-) but it is a discussion forum here right ?

I always love to read your posts Chris , even if I dont always agree ; you have well-argumented views always

[PTChristopher2]

>>> I bring my guitars to one of the guys you speak of - the one directly across the street from Berklee. He does great work!

Hi Snoski - Yeah, they used to in the main Berklee building around the corner on Belvedere St.. But then they found out that the building should have probably crushed them as far back as when I worked there. So they moved across Mass. Ave. and the old location now has a big beam running though it (and seemingly holding the building up just fine).

Next time say Hi from me ("Chris") and tell him he should have met me and the Mrs. on the cape for biking last fall - we'll try again after the ice melts. This should be around August 10th the way things are going (6 deg F. this morning in my back yard).

[PTChristopher2]

fws6,

I certainly think you have a better handle on what a collector would value in a tricky situation. So if it was you, me, and the guitar.

- PTC: We are going to do what you decide in the end, but let's air it out a bit first. If I take the binding channel back a hair, it would look much cleaner without lots if ugly fill spots.

- FWS: A minimalist approach is alway better. Leave the original as much as possible. Collectors understand.

- PTC: I am talking about keeping the binding layer count and configuration the same.

- FWS: It will be different and a collector will know it.

- PTC: I mean that they would not notice.

- FWS: You mean like nobody notices that stupid apron you wear?

- PTC: Hey, Patrick2 said it would make me look al luthier-y, and stuff.

- FWS: He said to write "Kiss the Fret Boy" on the front?

- PTC: OK, not exactly, but I was running with the CONCEPT.

- FWS: Concept, my ass. And what is with the silver glitter all over it. Looks like a Liberace reject suit.

- PTC: That's nickel-silver! It's all part of the,...

- FWS: Concept, yeah. Now do the binding the way I want and don't get any apron glitter all over it.

Or something like that.

>>> even if I dont always agree ; you have well-argumented views always


I understand. There is little point in us all just agreeing on something (except for the way-fine-i-tude of Mrs. Klatu).

On the other hand, there are points of view and there are absurd myth-baths. It can be tricky to mix these sometimes.

Chris

[Hammertone]

... the way-fine-i-tude of Mrs. Klatu....

You mean the Missus Klatitude?

….mmm….removing the binding from Mrs. Klatu…..mmm….
I guess that's the subject of a different kind of thread.

In my little playground of Teutonic terrors, there's one guy who does gorgeous and very shiny restorations. Funny, I prefer my old German archtops to be in good repair but to bear all the marks of previous ownership. I like to see them wearing their history, and most of them have plenty of history. Pix to come soon enough.

[skykomishone]

Hi Bop,

...in my opinion the cost of such an effort would be in the thousands unless someone has either staggeringly low costs, or is somehow inspired to make this effort for questionable renumeration.

.....this one sounds like a lifestyle choice that may be beyond the interest of many.

Chris

The luthier told me that he way underbid this project and that at this point it is something that he can add it to his list of accomplishments. As I've read this thread, and having the unique opportunity to frequent his workshop, it is apparent that he is indeed a rare bird, and to that I can attest. Truly great at what he does. He is also a fine person. He's restoring a 1938 Calace Italian archtop for me at the same time as the D'A, so my guitar has some awesome company. It is very cool to watch the restoration on both of these take place. If only they could somehow get mixed up without anyone noticing. Hah!

[PTChristopher2]

Hey Sky',

Yep. I can well imagine the practical P&L aspect of this project and yours as well.

Even somewhat more mundane projects like a neck reset are typically done at prices that result in very low hourly wages. A plumber would charge something like $2,000 or more for the work involved in a neck reset.

There are definitely sole proprietors and small-shop luthiers who make it all work. But they are fairly rare outside of major markets.

Hope to see your Italian archtop when done.

Chris