-
So, you've got an archtop you're curious about, and its acoustic...no pickups to remove.
How is it possible to absolutely determine if its made of laminate construction, or solid wood?
The clock is ticking so please provide your input soon
-
03-01-2014 02:23 PM
-
Check the F holes if it's unbound?
-
Nope..they're bound.
Originally Posted by itsall4you
-
Is there a noticeable wood grain / pattern on the top? If there is, can you slip in a small mirror to see the pattern underneath the top matches the top?
-
A good luthier might be able to tell just by tapping it. Alternatively, you could take it the ante-natal department of your local hospital and use an ultrasound scanner. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
So, you've got an archtop you're curious about, and its acoustic...no pickups to remove.
How is it possible to absolutely determine if its made of laminate construction, or solid wood?
The clock is ticking so please provide your input soon
Just joking: but you have given me an idea ! My research group are currently fooling around (they call it work), trying to build an ultrasound device to measure the thickness of corrosion inside a pipe. Now, I've just got to see whether it can tell the difference between laminate and solid woods. It may also tell you the thickness of the lacquer !
I wonder how much someone would pay for such a device. Might be useful for antique furniture dealers as well.
How long can you wait whilst we build and test one ? It could be a couple of months
-
The theory being that if it's solid wood the grain pattern should be on the back side of the wood as well? Hmmm, that rests well with my sense of logic. I'll ask the seller. Originally Posted by kenhan
-
thx again Chris!
-
Also, many laminate tops will not have a center seam. Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
-
lams can be heavy...
-
try shining a bright LED light through it.
-
if there is book matched grain in the top, maybe that would be a sign that it is carved.
I don't know if laminated tops are made to look book matched as they would be if they were split from a billet.
also, don't laminates and carved tops have distinct sounds? they have always been easy to distinguish by the sound both acoustic and amplified.Last edited by fritz jones; 03-02-2014 at 12:30 AM.
-
sure they are. Originally Posted by fritz jones
http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies...minateTop.aspx
-
I have 3 ways.
1. look at the grain. For me 9x's out of 10 laminate has a different looking pattern, it can often be strong and weak (by thatI mean disappearing all together) in places and looks very little, like a real solid cut piece. The top of the wood also has like a glossy, sheen in areas were the grain becomes its least obvious.
2. Put your finger through the F-hole and rub the underside of the soundboard. If it is really nice and smooth then it is likely carved. If it is in any way grainy it is probably laminate. Carving will make the surface really smooth.
3. listen to the tone. But that needs experience. Tapping doesn't always work. Solid tops have a deeper ring to the decaying note in my ex.
-
Just put your index finger in the basside f hole to the rim, and then feel the thickness off the top on the edge of the f hole, the middle, and at the rim. A well graduated carved top will have noteceable different thickness - a laminate has the same thickness on the whole top plate
Most 'solid top' guitars sold nowadays (Peerless etc) are actually a nice form of laminate BTW. They have a thicker layer of spruce, with one or two much thinner layers of laminate underneath. That way they can press the 'solid' top in shape without getting cracks in the spruce. There was a pretty good write up on this process on J Hale's page before they shut down
-
Does this apply just to those models referred to as "Solid Top" or the ones which have the "Carved Tops" as well? Originally Posted by fws6
-
Actually I find J-hale to be really underhand (they're also not alone in this). There seems to be a trend in the U:S to call 'laminate tops' 'Solid tops. They obviously do this, to fool the customer into thinking, the product is better value and constructed using higher grade components.
I have no idea how they can warp this logic into anything other than sales BS.
J-hale are the main perpetrators of this rubbish marketing.
The Japanese Epiphone 'Elitist' and 'elite' range also do the same thing. They claim their tops are solid, but intact, they are laminate. The Byrdland and Broadway elite are two examples.
-
What part of America are you talking about?
-
The way the OP phrased the question indicates he is on the wrong path. To my way of thinking, there is no sonic advantage of *solid* spruce vs a laminate. In fact, a laminate might sound superior. You are looking to see if it is a *hand carved* spruce top vs. a laminate, or pressed or steamed solid top. The easiest thing is to check the ad copy; if it says "solid spruce" rather than "hand carved spruce" that is all you need to know 99% of the time. If it is a real acoustic arch top, it will say hand carved. If not it is not hand carved, and they want you to think it is a great sounding acoustic, they advertise it as solid spruce, because that's how high quality flat tops are described.
I feel inside the F hole to see if I can detect a difference in top thickness, but what would that really tell you? Some carved top models are inferior, and you won't be able to tell that without playing it. Heck, even playing it will fool you, because of the strings, and the lack of another guitar to compare it with. You might fall in love with an L50, but unless you play, say, an L7 with the same strings right after it, you'll never really know.
Short answer: tell us the guitar model, and we will tell you if it is a hand carved guitar, and where it stands in the company's model line.
-
Sorry I didn't mean that as a racial slur lol. It's just something I've noticed online from American shops like J-hale. I'm sure it happens other places too, but I certainly noticed it, as being somewhat prevalent in the U:S
-
I'm sorry but I think that is rubbish. If a laminate is now a solid top, then what is the point in using the term solid at all? Don't say it's now some esoteric thing that we should all understand, handed down to us by people wanting to sell an instrument. Because if you let the marketing department dictate to you what words mean, then we're all in trouble. Originally Posted by nopedals
*hand carved* spruce top vs. a laminate, or pressed or steamed solid top.
Just sounds like waffle to me, no offence. They do it to make the laymen think the top is solid I'e 1 piece of wood. Not several pieces 'laminate' put together.
It is a redundant argument because have you ever seen, a top made from 3 pieces, each with a fine layer of air in-between? to suggest its 'Not' a solid top??
It gets ridiculous IMO lol
Solid is 1 piece of wood. 1 single piece of wood. Most self respecting people know this. Those who want to muddy the issue, will try to convince you otherwise. IMO
That is why Laminate is still the preferred term when describing a laminated top.
The other classic to come out of asian Epiphone's etc was 'Select Spruce'.
It just seems they will try anything to avoid using the term 'Laminate'.
-
I have been down this rabbithole with German archtop guitars, most of which were built with laminated spruce tops. On some of the better ones, the builders were fiendishly clever about matching the inner spruce laminations to the outer spruce laminations. German catalogues of the day described this as "spruce (fichte) or simply "wood" (holz). I suspect they weren't that interested in deception. Perhaps more interested in beer. Or they simply didn't care.
A few observations:
- laminated tops rarely have the traditional strips of muslin or wood glued on their undersides just beyond or around the ends of the f-holes to help prevent splitting at the ends of the f-holes
- as mentioned, laminate (and solid pressed) tops are of a uniform thickness, unlike solid tops
- laminated tops are highly symmetrical in terms of any variations in the figure of the spruce, carved tops less so. This is because the outer edges of laminate tops show wood that is immediately adjacent in the log, while the outer edges of solid carved tops show wood that is a good inch apart when in the log.Last edited by Hammertone; 03-02-2014 at 09:21 PM.
-
The land of the accursed cheese-heads. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Damn them! Damn them all to hell!
Thankfully, Jeff, you are safe from their depradations, a few miles south of there, protected by the Great Wall of Lincoln Logs (actually visible from outer space, is my understanding).
Or is it the land of catalogue copy-writing?
Sorry, catalog copy-writing.
That land is international territory as far as I can tell, surrounded by the Sea of Lies.Last edited by Hammertone; 03-02-2014 at 09:23 PM.
-
Bear in mind, too, that there are many carved spruce top guitars that don't even pretend to have acoustic sound (eg, Gibson L5CES. A Gibson ES-446 has about the same acoustic properties as a south sea island canoe. On the other hand, a 1950s Gretsch Constellation, which has alaminate top, has very credible acoustic sound.
I think most URBs are laminate, too.
-
[QUOTE=jzucker;403570]try shining a bright LED light through it.[/QUOTE
Just tried it. Simple and it works. Using a reasonably bright LED the spruce is translucent. You can even see grain details with the light shining through. On a laminate you get nothing.. totally opaque. Pity this doesn't work on rosewood for flat top backs.Last edited by Spook410; 03-02-2014 at 05:11 PM.
-
There is solid, carved. Then there is solid pressed. Then there is laminate. Then there is a top constructed adding a layer of nomex.
Yes.. and then there is ad copy. Like the common practice of calling plastic furniture covering 'bonded leather'. Got over it years ago. Though I still have the twitch from time to time.
Reply With Quote
Jimmy Smith at Newport ('72) Kenny Burrell on guitar
Today, 03:31 PM in The Players