Michi Matsuda Archtop?

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

ugh, such closed-minded drivel. This is why jazz has failed to grow. People expect the music to be stuck in the past instead of moving on.

"Closed minded drivel" my ass. The guitar, or contraption that's supposed to be a guitar is butt ugly. If this is to be seen as the future of jazz . . then jazz as we know it (as I and the vast majority of other jazz guitarists know it) will die. If you can somehow see this . . . thing . . . as having a place in the future of jazz, I'll need a hit of what ever it is you're smoking. (Oh . . never mind . . I gave that shit up in '85

. . )

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

You are absolutely wrong Patrick. This design is entirely consistent with a broader movement to build ergonomically advanced guitars that improve both comfort and portability. That movement has been happening for at least a couple decades now and has gained a lot of traction in recent years with the release of new headless hardware and a wide variety of headless instruments built around some common shapes and themes. This may be a moderately different take on the concept but it is well within the general theme that has emerged since the original Klein headless guitars.

Yeah . . those Klein headless guitars seem to be everywhere you look in the jazz guitar world, don't they?

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Some more ...

This is a link to page on Pinterest page on ergonomic guitars. (And I've never tried linking to a Pinterest page before so I hope this works). The Matsuda is one of many guitars on the page and you can see that the Matsuda fits in very well with the overall theme.

https://www.pinterest.com/bearnematt...-guitar-ideas/

There are a lot of great and well respected players using these guitars, so if you want to accuse Michael Hedges of having played an abomination go right ahead but you might find that to be very lonely territory.

\

"a lot of great and well respected players . . . " Yet your list consists of . . . one.

Lonely territory? Check the vast majority of the reaction to this guitar here in this thread.

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-07-2015, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

ugh, such closed-minded drivel. This is why jazz has failed to grow. People expect the music to be stuck in the past instead of moving on.

Moving on to what? Where is the connection with music? You can't play innovative things on a tele, or L5, or... anything? To me, some things don't need an improvement, because they are perfect as is. The only purpose of the radically different guitars like this one gotta be purely aesthetic. Some dig it, some don't. For me, if I saw it on the exposition in MOMA, I would say, yea, Picasso style guitar as an art object, wow , so cool! But as a functional instrument- damn it, noooo!

You like it so much, buy it, take it to a gig, post a pic here, be honest!

BTW what is the price?

**jzucker** · 07-07-2015, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

"Closed minded drivel" my ass. The guitar, or contraption that's supposed to be a guitar is butt ugly. If this is to be seen as the future of jazz . . then jazz as we know it (as I and the vast majority of other jazz guitarists know it) will die. If you can somehow see this . . . thing . . . as having a place in the future of jazz, I'll need a hit of what ever it is you're smoking. (Oh . . never mind . . I gave that shit up in '85

. . )

jazz is already dead partially because it's stuck in the past. Only old geezers like you and me like it anymore, lol

**jzucker** · 07-07-2015, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Moving on to what? Where is the connection with music? You can't play innovative things on a tele, or L5, or... anything? To me, some things don't need an improvement, because they are perfect as is. The only purpose of the radically different guitars like this one gotta be purely aesthetic. Some dig it, some don't. For me, if I saw it on the exposition in MOMA, I would say, yea, Picasso style guitar as an art object, wow , so cool! But as a functional instrument- damn it, noooo!

You like it so much, buy it, take it to a gig, post a pic here, be honest!

BTW what is the price?

the connection to the music is through the playah, not the axe.

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

the connection to the music is through the playah, not the axe.

If you believe that, then why the hell do you change guitars like most people change their underwear?

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-07-2015, 02:25 PM

So.. what's the price? Did I miss it? Can't find it anywhere

**Jim Soloway** · 07-07-2015, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

\

"a lot of great and well respected players . . . " Yet your list consists of . . . one.

Lonely territory? Check the vast majority of the reaction to this guitar here in this thread.

I cited Hedges because he appears on the page I linked to but are you really not aware of a much wider list of players who are using (or have used) ergo guitars? There are in fact quite a few including some wonderful jazz guitarists (Tim Miller, Mick Goodrick, Jodie Fisher, Alan Holdsworth and many other) and a few who are respected members of the site (Rodger/RpGuitar and one of my personal favorites, Harvey Valdes, who owns several different variations on the theme).

And just in case you've never seen Harvey in action on one of his ergo guitars.

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I cited Hedges because he appears on the page I linked to but are you really not aware of a much wider list of players who are using (or have used) ergo guitars? There are in fact quite a few including some wonderful jazz guitarists (Tim Miller, Mick Goodrick, Jodie Fisher, Alan Holdsworth and many other) and a few who are respected members of the site (Rodger/RpGuitar and one of my personal favorites, Harvey Valdes, who owns several different variations on the theme).

And just in case you've never seen Harvey in action on one of his ergo guitars.

Yes. I am unaware of these players (except for Holdsworth) or their music, or the vast majority of these guitars . . because they are of no interest to me. I do know Chris Forshage (did a guitar deal with him for a Super Eagle that he took in on trade) and I'm aware that Roger is a fan of his ergo guitars. Once, quite a while ago, when Roger showed a pic of his guitar room . . I jokingly asked him what the heck those things were. He joking responded with a faked expression of having been insulted that I dis'd his Forshage guitars. (at least I think he was joking??)

I guess they're like Escargot and/or Uni . . . an acquired taste. I do not care to acquire it. I'm an admitted traditionalist. I do not embrace change well . . if at all. Can't remember ever seeing Pass, Wes, Martino, Smith, Ellis, Green, Kessel, Benson, Hall playing anything looking like that. Nor could I have imagined them doing so if such a contraption as this guitar in the OP was in existence when some of them were alive.

I totally fail to understand the need for "ergo" guitars . . when traditional players have been using traditional guitars for decades . . and no one has ever died from it.

**iim7V7IM7** · 07-07-2015, 02:57 PM

As I said in a earlier post, Michi is both an extremely nice guy and talented and creative luthier. I have met Michi, twice now at luthier shows and once at a private party. I can assure you that he is very down to earth and loves a beautifully made traditionally designed guitar as much as anyone.

Guitars like the one being discussed here are simply conversation pieces where Michi is stretching out and showing the limits of his creativity and craft. He builds these pieces every once in a while as a demonstration of his creativity. Given the back and forth in this thread it seems to have succeeded in provoking thought and discussion. I can assure you, that at his core; he is a thoughtful steel string acoustic flat top luthier. Michi apprenticed under Ervin Somogyi from 1999-2001 and for the last 15-years for the most part builds beautifully detailed and crafted, highly responsive custom flat tops.

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 02:59 PM

Jim, Just went back and listened to the clip of Harvey Valdez that you posted. I find what he played in that clip equally as uninteresting *to me* (musically) as I find those guitars to be. Can anyone actually listen to something like that for long periods of time? I certainly can not. (Escargo and Uni?)

**Jim Soloway** · 07-07-2015, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Jim, Just went back and listened to the clip of Harvey Valdez that you posted. I find what he played in that clip equally as uninteresting *to me* (musically) as I find those guitars to be. Can anyone actually listen to something like that for long periods of time? I certainly can not. (Escargo and Uni?)

Patrick, you are a virtual one-man way-back machine.

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

jazz is already dead partially because it's stuck in the past. Only old geezers like you and me like it anymore, lol

I gotta disagree, Jack . . . (oh . . not that you and I are old geezers, that's a given). But, that traditional (if I may use that word) jazz is already dead. Quite a few young'uns embracing it and running with it. It'll definitely out live you, me and our kids.

**Patrick2** · 07-07-2015, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Patrick, you are a virtual one-man way-back machine.

Ya really think so? I believe that there are far, far, far more of traditionalists like myself in the world of jazz guitar . . than there are those who might find stuff like what was played in the Harvey Valdez clip, to be interesting jazz guitar.

This is probably the most populated and active jazz guitar forum on the net. What would you say the ratio of the two would be here?

**339 in june** · 07-07-2015, 04:01 PM

Not an archtop, but this guitar was built for a man that can be considered as a jazzman (but, of course, not in the "traditional" way)
TIGER?S TAIL electric guitar
and he is gigging with it !
So what ?
Taste and colours ....
... and tolerance.

**Spook410** · 07-07-2015, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

<snip> I mean, look at the upright bass players, they might need some innovations with portability, if you ask me...

Already taken care of.. well.. sort of.

**Jim Soloway** · 07-07-2015, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

Already taken care of.. well.. sort of.

I've seen a couple latin bands using a U-Bass and they worked really well.

**Bluedawg** · 07-07-2015, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I've seen a couple latin bands using a U-Bass and they worked really well.

Interesting ... I have an Ashbory bass ... I wonder if the U-Bass strings would work on an Ashbory.

DeArmond Ashbory Bass | Musician's Friend

**Jim Soloway** · 07-07-2015, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Jim, Just went back and listened to the clip of Harvey Valdez that you posted. I find what he played in that clip equally as uninteresting *to me* (musically) as I find those guitars to be. Can anyone actually listen to something like that for long periods of time? I certainly can not. (Escargo and Uni?)

Let's see if you like this one any better.