Gibson ES-150 Archtop and Alternatives

[dmorash]

Sounds wonderful. Wish they still made these.

[oldane]

A great and well cared for instrument. The 17" 150 is one of my favorites (though I never owned one myself).

[yebdox]

I would be hard pressed not to buy that on the spot. It looks immaculate and has "that" tone! Congrats!

[zizala]

Thats a beautiful '52!

I can understand how happy you must be.....
I've really been amazed by my own recently acquired '52 ES-150........what a great instrument!

[Stringswinger]

Congrats. Those are great guitars. If you can live without a cutaway, the value cannot be beat.

[Burrellesque]

Congratulations! I have a 52 ES350N. Great year for Gibsons!

I have TI swing 12's on mine too. I have .013 and .017 unwound E and B though.

SaveSave

[lumena]

New CC tribute guitar




Pretty much a complete copy made by Archtop Tribute/Walkin. I asked for pricing.
Shipped to usa was about 3200 including tax and fees. Nice but a bit on the fence, its a maybe for me.
Its very close looking at the real thing. When I asked about it they have fanatical details. They did however go with a more modern neck contour - 50's rather than 40's.

Then there is the real thing.

EH6680 Gibson ES-150 Charlie Christian model 1936

At Gruhn 5500 had the refret and neck reset there.

[Greentone]

Great thread. All of my experience is confined to an original, 1937 Gibson ES-150. I haven't played the tribute guitars--but would like to.

All I can say is that the "150" is, IMO, the greatest electric guitar of all time. If the pickup is in good repair, i.e., if the magnets have good magnetic charges, the guitar is the most 3-dimensional of all electric guitars. There simply is no end to the dynamic response--you can pick harder or softer and the change in volume is fantastic. In particular, the guitar doesn't "top out." There is no ceiling on what the guitar will deliver. Pick harder and the sound keeps building up. This is a combination of what the guitar (L-50) is capable of delivering and what the pickup can transfer from string vibration into signal.

The tone? SUBLIME.

FWIW, some of the clips that oldfret (er, I meant Fred Archtop) has posted with both the original and the various alternatives to it (Slaman, etc.) are simply great.

[Bromando]

OK guys, so I picked up my dream vintage jazz guitar recently, a ’37 ES150 that plays and sounds incredible. Of course, as with most guitars of this vintage, there are a couple of issues that I want to address and I thought I’d try these questions here since this is probably the highest concentration of 150cc owners on the web…


The guitar came with the original pickup but currently is sporting a replacement hum-cancelling pickup in a CC shell, no modifications were made to the guitar. The previous owner did this because he couldn’t take the hum, but also because of how much lighter/resonant the top becomes. The pickup sounds legitimately great, a local luthier put it together, but I think it would be crazy not to at least try the original. Which leads to these questions:

• The main concern I have is that the current pickup is very light and an original CC pickup is almost 2lbs… I know these guitars are supposed to be “uncarved” on the bottom of the top to provide feedback resistance, but when I look around the pickup route the wood doesn’t look particularly thick… Probably just under 1/4” around the middle of the top, tried to measure with a small tape measure but it was hard to see. That doesn’t seem particularly thick to me, though I haven’t measured my other archtops… I have looked with a dental mirror and the guitar is X-braced as it should be.
  
  Does the top get much thicker where the actual 3 bolts are? Any other 150 owners know if that’s in line with their top thickness? Would you guys worry about top sag?
• The guitar currently has non-original screws and shims/washers for the “3 bolts” that hold the CC pickup… Does anyone know where I could get replacement screws/shims, or what the sizes are so I can get them from a hardware store? Doesn’t look right to me with Phillips head screws, though I do think they changed to a cross head screw in ’39… I tried emailing CC Pickups but haven’t gotten a reply yet.
• Has anyone actually tried to remagnetize the cobalt bars of an original 30s CC pickup? I have a guy who builds pickups and has a magnetizer, but he’s not sure it will work on cobalt because he only works with alnico pickups… Shouldn’t make a difference, no?
• Would you guys use the original pots if working or avoid potential hardship and keep using the newer CTS pots currently in it? I might have to switch anyways if these pots are 500k…
• Has anyone tried using a dummy coil system (Ilitch Systems, think a lot of boutique strats have them now) with an original CC? Pretty much like an elastic band that goes around the pickup inside the body, acts like a "humdebugger" pedal with completely transparent hum elimination... Wonder if it will tame the beast that is the CC hum, I gigged a CC guitar for years and know the struggle.

Any insight would be appreciated!

[oldane]

As I understand it, the original CC pickup is fixed with the well known three screws but between the magnets and the top (inside the guitar) is also three springs around the screws which work much like the springs in a humbucker mount. I have read several stories of people going nuts over getting those screws and springs in place inside the guitar - especially since the 1930s ES 150 has very slender F holes to work through. So if it was me, I'd leave the guitar as it is now if it sounds OK - or leave the work to a guitar technician.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I can’t really speak to the questions, but my 1936 ES-150 has all of its original electronics and actually has very little hum. No B string notch also seems to work quite well with TI Jazz Swings.

[icr]

Does the top get much thicker where the actual 3 bolts are? Any other 150 owners know if that’s in line with their top thickness? Would you guys worry about top sag?

I believe this is an original ES-150 (large picture). But, since I did not take the photograph, and it is NOT MY GUITAR there may be some level of uncertainty.
On my guitar (L50 conversion) I added an additional cross brace where the two top pickup holes come through the top (insert picture).

[Bromando]

I would be getting the pickup installed by a very competent tech/luthier, definitely won't be trying this by myself!

ICR, on your L50 do you know what the top thickness is approximately around the route (mostly concerned with the side towards the bridge where the screws go), think it should be thinner by rights than my 150 right? That bottom picture helps a lot!

[Littlemark]

I'm no expert, but I've never heard of Gibson "not carving" the 150s. If the top hasn't sagged yet. You are probably ok. When you store it keep it off its back.

IMO why would you change the pots. They work. They will also help maintain the value. If they wear out later. Fix it later.

I agree that slotted head screws are awesome but as you said they later used Phillips head. Maybe try and dirty up the heads to make them look old. That could solve the aesthetic issue.

No idea about remagnatizing Cobalt, or this dummy coil idea. Again IMO keep it stock, unless you are a touring musician who plays this guitar every night. There are ways to deal with hum that don't involve messing with 800 dollar PUPs.

Enjoy the guitar!

[Bromando]

Ok... So recent development.

On second look, the "original" CC pickup is actually a circular Charlie Christian pickup from a "Roy Smeck" guitar... Still cobalt and 3 bolt, but obviously the original ES150 pickup has been replaced somewhere over 80 years, I don't think any 150s came with Roy Smeck pickups did they? I am still rather positive the guitar is a ES150 btw, the fingerboard is bound and flat on the top and the guitar is x braced with a flat back...

Seller is a friend so it's not like I'm getting ripped off, he's shocked the pickup isn't original and we both agree the price has to be adjusted.

I know this is a personal question, and everyone might have a different answer... But what percentage value hit would you expect for a ES150 without the original pickup? I'm obviously going to put in a UK CC, not worried from a playing perspective as I do think those pickups probably sound better than the originals in most cases. 30% off? 50% off?

[Fred Archtop]

I know this is a personal question, and everyone might have a different answer... But what percentage value hit would you expect for a ES150 without the original pickup? I'm obviously going to put in a UK CC, not worried from a playing perspective as I do think those pickups probably sound better than the originals in most cases. 30% off? 50% off?

All prewar ES-150 I’ve tried sounded great with their original CC PU, and so sounds mine from 1938. I also have a ‘37 L50 converted into an ES-150 with a PU from CC UK. Sounds great but not the same as my ES-150 which I prefer.

There was recently an original CC PU that was saled on Reverb.com. It went for roughly 1k.

Cheers.

[Bromando]

All prewar ES-150 I’ve tried sounded great with their original CC PU, and so sounds mine from 1938. I also have a ‘37 L50 converted into an ES-150 with a PU from CC UK. Sounds great but not the same as my ES-150 which I prefer.

There was recently an original CC PU that was saled on Reverb.com. It went for roughly 1k.

Cheers.

Hmm... You probably actually prefer the sound of a de-gaussed pickup, I think Colin from CC UK can do that too?

Either way, I get it... Just myself as a player, I have been thoroughly impressed with the sound of CC UK pickups and believe they have "the sound" that I associate with a great old CC. I have played original CCs that sounded great, but I have also played at least two that sounded really bright/weak due to (I think) output loss.

The L50 wouldn't sound the same for other reasons, which I'm sure you know. Mostly bracing/top carve as well as the elevated fingerboard.

I guess my question is, I know an original CC sells for $800-1200 on the rare occasion they seem to sell... However, I don't think $1000 covers the actual value hit to the guitar from not having the original pickup, you dig?

...Though I guess if I found an original pickup I could sell it as all original, as it would contain only period correct OEM parts?

[D'Aquisto Fan]

I'm not sure how much the guitar should be de-valued due to the lack of a real CC pickup. But keep in mind for most the original CC pickup is the reason people by that guitar. I would have to imagine the price needs to be aggressively adjusted. Think of your potential exit strategy on the instrument.

[Bromando]

I'm not sure how much the guitar should be de-valued due to the lack of a real CC pickup. But keep in mind for most the original CC pickup is the reason people by that guitar. I would have to imagine the price needs to be aggressively adjusted. Think of your potential exit strategy on the instrument.

Oh I can get my money back if I want no problem, once again the seller is a friend and good guy who honestly thought he had the original pickup... It's that I actually LOVE this guitar, sounds incredible even with the pickup in it and plays perfectly!

The price looks like it's going to be cut in half from what I already thought was fair... I think most guys would buy an original ES150 that has a repro UK CC pickup for the same price as a carved Eastman, think I'm willing to take that chance!

[Littlemark]

I am fairly certain the Roy Smeck pickup is identical to the guts of a CC. They only difference being the shape of the bobbin. It is still probably an awesome sounding piece of hardware. It just won't look or foyr right.

[campusfive]

So, pics? That will probably get everyone to stop guessing about it being a different model. From the stuff you're mentioning, it think you're probably right about the pickup simply being replaced, and the pickup out of a catalog-brand gibson sounds right.

My advice: You should check out pics of those Roy Smeck pickups to see how similar they are to the Gibson ones (very). And then buy a UK CC pickup. You can either swap it in, or see if you can move put the Smeck pickup into the hexagonal housing.

I totally get the aesthetic issue with having that rounded bezel, but the good news is that outside of the bezel there's very little difference. And you might find that you don't dig the degaussed sound, at least as much as the original.

I struggled with worrying about the provenance of my 1937 ES-150 too. But, thanks to a forum member here, I was able to check the FON against the ledger and find that it was an ES-150 (shipped 8/12/1937 to Arkansas, natch). In my case, I think the pickup was left relatively loose in the guitar, between gravity and it flopping around when it was moved, it looks like it chewed up the opening quite a bit, and it enlarged the screwholes a bit. Thus the pickup was sitting a couple mm's closer to the bridge than it should, so the old owner remove the piece of binding on the pickguard. This is how I got it.



But, simply adjusting the pickup to sit firmly without flopping around, it went back where it should, and I had a luthier add back the binding pieces. And it's definitely the original pickguard, too. So here is how it looks today - it still fits a little shifted, but it doesn't move at all when the guitar moves. And of course, it sounds exactly like it's supposed to.

[campusfive]

Also, for fun here's mine next to my friend's 1939. I actually found his for him at the same shop (one that doesn't really cater to the kind of people who would really be interested in such a guitar) a year or two later, and the helped make the sale happen. I'm in Los Angeles, and he's in DC, so I picked up the guitar for him, and had it set up at my local shop. We fly out for the same two gigs in DC every year, so I just brought his guitar with me, and then left it with him.



It's funny how much redder his burst is, and the warping of the pickguard. Mine definitely got some overspray on the back, and I'm pretty sure they weren't the original knobs either. Thankfully, I vastly prefer the more "two-color" sunburst on mine.

[Bromando]

Hi Jonathan,

You already saw the guitar on fb, Lucian here... It's a 150 for sure, not sure how to post pics here or I would.

When I look in the jack hole and flash a light in the f-holes the bracing looks to be exactly like ICR's picture, I assume your's is the same? Like a reinforced X brace with the third "bolt" going through the middle of the cross!

I think many of 150s I've seen have had crooked pickups...

I also prefer the earlier 150s both for the burst as well as the ebony 30s style bridge... Cooler IMO

[archtopeddy]

Hi fellas. Nice pics of the 150s, Jonathan. Earlier in this thread, there was a question about the tops of the 150s being carved a bit thicker to accommodate for the pickup hole and weight. I always thought they were essentially the same carve-thickness as an L-50 but had the x-bracing added where the bottom bolt went through the crossing so it would help reinforce the top for the pickup. Any thoughts on this?

[Encinitastubes]

Little bit off topic, but for you 150 owners, how would you describe the necks. I'm having trouble finding archtops with a big enough neck that I prefer. Thanks. Jonathan.