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Jorge, in the real word, conversation goes where it goes and we just let it evolve. Given how much argument I see on internet forums, it's nice to see friends able to talk about things like this with none of the acrimony or bitterness that seem to be the hallmark of so much internet discussion.
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I will then Jim, just didn't want to turn a reverb thread into a delay one
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12-15-2013 12:27 PM
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Very true Jim, this forum somehow always manages to stay friendly apart from some occasional troll Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Let's keep the thread going then!
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Sorry guys. For whatever reason I tend to connect to two together, reverb and delay. Probably as they are the only effects I am really interested in, other than a smidge of overdrive for an edge when desired..
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Rich, a lot of people see these two as being related (if not interchangeable). They both focus on increasing ambience and size. they just take different approaches to the job. Originally Posted by Wildcat
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I come back for the effects loop,
I take the manual on the page 13.
http://cdn-downloads.tcelectronic.co...al-english.pdf
"Kill-Dry on/off – With Buffered Bypass activated (upper switch to the right), the lower dip-switch sets
Kill-Dry on/off. Kill-Dry removes all direct signal from the pedals output and is the mode to use when
the pedal is placed in a parallel effects loop.
Kill-Dry is NOT an option in True Bypass mode."
And it's the mode I've tried my pedal in the FX loop. I didn't want test another mode because I thought the impedance will be too high for the pedal input. In the kill-dry mode, the sound is always more than muddy.
So I checked the schematic of my amp, and I saw than it's an serial effects loop. Only the wet signal is amplified. Like Jorge says the pedal corrects the impedance, and he doesn't seem to move the dip-switches, I've tried quickly in the "true by-pass" mode. And the sound is correct.
At the opposite, It seems to be logical, if you don't activate the kill-dry mode, on a parallel effects loop, that you increase a part of the level of the dry signal.
So, I tried all the possibilities, and the better sound I get is when the pedal is in the effects loop, with the upper dip-switch on "buffered by-pass" and the lower dip-switch on "kill-dry off". But it was just a personnal quick test, not a scientific study.Last edited by nado64; 12-16-2013 at 07:49 AM.
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I do that, too. Originally Posted by Wildcat
I know that some people like to have more reverb to comp and more delay for the solo.
But personnaly, I'm mono-thread, so I can't play with the pedals and with the fretboard at the same time.
So, when I play, the sound is the same during all the gig.
The only extra I use is the volume knob to balance my guitar with the band.
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a few quick addendums:
-a fun cheap dirty analog pedal would be the ehx memory toy. super cheap thrills used.
-an analog delay with the delay time set at the lowest, fastest setting becomes a room flavored reverb. not my favorite reverb, but a useful and distinct one.
-any tc electronics reverb will serve you just fine, since they all have the same basic verbs and the tone print capability. its just the fancy reverbs the vary from one pedal to the other. i think its the same deal with their small delays, too.
-don't use any fx loops myself. i like the in front sound just fine.
-live, you may find yourself needing less reverb, if any at all. because reverb puts your sound in a space, and live, you're probably in a space already. you might just make things muddy and indistinct. a short delay may be more advantageous to give you a little more depth and width. back at home or in the studio, anything goes.
-and honestly, 450-500ish ms is enough delay time for me. i very rarely go past that and within a jazz context, you probably won't find a whole lot of use for times north of 1 second. but i tend to use it as a fat-erizer and don't do much rhythmic stuff. i usually set the blend (wet/dry) low enough to push the delays into the background.
-spring, hall, plate and maybe room. all you really need are good variations on a couple of those themes; you don't even need all four. again, talking "jazz".
-bigdaddy- i had a tc electronics nova repeater that had a "dynamic" setting, which was a digital flavored delay the responded to your picking intensity. you could make it subtle or prominent with just your attack. not exactly the same thing, but maybe worth a look?
sincerely,
a guy who's gone through an embarrassing about of delay and reverb pedals (and a few plug ins, too).
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"if not interchangeable" "increasing ambience and size" Excellent points as I struggle to find the lexicon or the vocabulary to describe the sublime experience of this pursuit. (In other words I know what I like, but not to sure why or explain why.) Bottom-line, for myself this experience is as much a intellectual/academic pursuit, as an artistic/emotional one.
Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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Some notes Originally Posted by feet
1 - these pedals sound good in front, their A/D/A is really good. Yet, they sound a little better in the loop, in my experience.
2 - in my experience live it really depends... some rooms need less reverbs some rooms need a lot more. Not easy to make a rule that live you need less reverb, some rooms are quite "dry".
3 - not sure how "jazz" is supposed to sound in a specific way but... I do see myself going more into the 700ms 800ms zone sometimes. I also use it in a really low mix.
4 - again not sure what "jazz" is supposed to sound but I can use several other modes than that. Church is great for example! But a good spring and a good digital can make my day (aka subdecay spring theory)
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Almost from the invention of the guitar we dream of ways on increasing sustain... overdrive, delay or reverb serve that exact purpose. I find a well tuned delay / reverb sound can really help blending our sound with the horns. Originally Posted by Wildcat
Some people tend to use reverb as a delay (really long decay) and some tend to use delay as a reverb (very low feedback and delay time). Both sound hideous in my opinion...
I like using reverb for reverb and delay for delay. Reverb to add some depth to single notes... something you can notice but does not ruin your tone or too subtle to be barely audible. If I want more depth a very low mix dark delay with some delay time can help giving a lot more natural sustain to one's sound. So, in resume, they do serve different purposes to me and each should be used to achieve what they were designed for.
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1- i suppose i should note that i also don't use effects loops because i don't have any. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
but still, they sound ok!
2- without getting into room size and materials and your placement within them, its still something to keep in mind. maybe not exactly a rule of thumb. a smaller carpeted room with low ceilings will sound different than an exposed brick bar which sounds different than a stadium.
3/4- i meant "jazz" in that everyday, traditional, quotidian clean hollowbody with the tone rolled back on the neck pickup kinda sound. hence the quotation marks. 800ms is already brian may territory for me. its cool, but its very much an effect and not a tone at that point, at least in my unskilled hands. i don't really "play" the delay much these days. and while i would advocate for simplicity in that "jazz" context, i do have several reverb and delay options scattered across three pedal boards. so my tone is always a little damp.
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I understand all your points, I just don't like the "for jazz" theory. I just don't see jazz as a "quotidian clean hollowbody with the tone rolled back on the neck pickup kinda sound"... much more diversity in this genre than "published opinion" makes of it Originally Posted by feet
1- i suppose i should note that i also don't use effects loops because i don't have any. but still, they sound ok!
2- without getting into room size and materials and your placement within them, its still something to keep in mind. maybe not exactly a rule of thumb. a smaller carpeted room with low ceilings will sound different than an exposed brick bar which sounds different than a stadium.
3/4- i meant "jazz" in that everyday, traditional, quotidian clean hollowbody with the tone rolled back on the neck pickup kinda sound. hence the quotation marks. 800ms is already brian may territory for me. its cool, but its very much an effect and not a tone at that point, at least in my unskilled hands. i don't really "play" the delay much these days. and while i would advocate for simplicity in that "jazz" context, i do have several reverb and delay options scattered across three pedal boards. so my tone is always a little damp.
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The quest of the sound in a traditional jazz combo, with only acoustic (unplugged) instruments will be different than a quest of the sound inside an electric rock band. I think the"for jazz"means that, here.
I don't think the pedal inside a effects loop is very significant for the listener.
The dip-switch on buffered bypass gives more results, for me.
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I just find it extremely redundant to say jazz is an archtop with flats and a paf and the tone rolled off...
It doesn't have to be significant for the listener... if you go that way a #9 on a dominant chord is also not significant objectively. On a subconscious level a caring audience will react well to good tone (and good notes) even if they don't know why. And if you can hear the difference (I can) and you like your sound more that way - that will probably make you play better, which hopefully will affect the audience
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Jazz is a cymbal, a snare, a double-bass, a piano, a sax and a trumpet. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I just find it extremely redundant to say jazz is an archtop with flats and a paf and the tone rolled off...
It doesn't have to be significant for the listener... if you go that way a #9 on a dominant chord is also not significant objectively. On a subconscious level a caring audience will react well to good tone (and good notes) even if they don't know why. And if you can hear the difference (I can) and you like your sound more that way - that will probably make you play better, which hopefully will affect the audience
I guess there are lot of cliches on the forums because, it's easier to describe a tone.
And a tone, it's hard to describe.
For me, a #9 is very significant.
The difference between the sound of the hof in the loop and the sound in front of the amp is more subtile.
Be careful, I don't say it's useless, I am for the effects loops !
I just say "don't replace your amp for that, it's not the end of the world."
Last year, you seem to be agree with that :
"I would also not get too crazy about the fx loop. It might sound a little better but I have got excellent results putting reverb and delay directly to the input."
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...sparent.html#4
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Sure, it's a subtle difference. For me it was enough to mod my henriksen (cheap mod anyway)... but if I have to go in front I will, no problem!
I was just pointing that the if you go the "listener can't tell the difference route" it's sort of a dangerous one
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Tone Candy have a reverb pedal called spring fever.
The video demos to my ears sound like the reverbs I had on my old fender amps (Twin, Super60).
I use the lexicon reflex (rack unit from the 90's) for reverbs, but a good spring reverb would be a nice addition.
The HOF and like pedals seem good but I don't think I will get much more than I already have with the reflex.
Spring Reverb sounds are probably the suggestions I would look at.
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I am getting my subdecay spring theory saturday, wait for the review
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Anyone got a chance to compare this pedal against a TC Nova Reverb? I have a TC Nova Delay that I really like so I'm torn between Nova Reverb and Arena pedals.
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I had the Nova system, I guess the reverbs are close to the Nova reverb.
I didn't be able to A/B with the HOF, my impression is :
Nova system has more settings, and you can try them in realtime.
The nova system can memory several presets.
The reverbs are very good, I used the plate reverb.
The weight of NR-1 is 750g. The dimensions are 130 x130 x 55mm.
The reverbs of the HOF seem to be better for me, but maybe, it's just an impression.
I use the Hall reverb. I like the tone knob.
There are only four knobs, but you can access to the same "expert settings" of the Nova with the "tone print editor" free software. Your setting needs to be uploaded to the HOF each time to try it.
The weight of the HOF is 300g. The dimensions are 72 mm x 122 mm x 50 mm.
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In my experience (Nova System and Nova Repeater): the Novas have more tweaking BUT: 1) the sounds are not as good 2) much bigger 3) more specific power supplies 4) worst ADA conversion 5) no toneprints and software
The TP pedals are quite a step up above even if you just consider sound... in my experience.
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Originally Posted by nado64
Thanks so much for your input! Sound is more important to me so I guess I will have to find a place where I can A/B them. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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I went ahead and ordered the TC version for a non-reverb amp I like.
Thanks for all the expertise in this thread!
- Joe
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