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Comping, yes. Double stops, yes. Octaves, yes. Strumming? Somehow I can't quite equate the precise in the pocket comping of the jazz greats as strumming. Anyhow, terminology. I use a Papa's pick which is synthetic tortoise. You control the angle of attack for comping vs single note runs. I couldn't imagine using a thin pick in jazz. I use a medium fender on my acoustic - everything else I use the Papa's.
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09-03-2013 05:39 PM
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I think you may be a bit too hung up on terminology. Strumming IS used for comping. Listen to Steve Greene playing rhythm guitar for Gene Bertoncini on the Gene With Greene recordings. Listen to how Eddie Lang played rhythm. Listen to the old Carl Kress/Dick McDonough duets. Definitely strumming. And called that before we came up with a name for every little maneuver. And yes, a thin pick has a definite place in getting that exceptionally percussive sound.
Originally Posted by DRS
And, oh yeah! Gypsy Jazz rhythm guitar playing.... now THAT'S strumming!
Many of my collection of older Tortoise picks are much slimmer than their modern pretenders. And also much stiffer. There really isn't a modern substitution for that.
In any case, I think, in general, we find ourselves more hung up with gear than technique these days. I've heard guys who could get all kinds of tone with their calloused thumbs.
Bob MartinLast edited by uburoibob; 09-03-2013 at 07:04 PM.
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Good post as usual Amund - fingerstyle comping is cool too, Kreisberg being a great example of someone who's got it happening - but when playing a ballad and you want to slowly and quietly strum (lol) a nice chord with a loose relaxed pick grip, that's where the thick pick would let me down with it's audible clack, clack, clack over each string making me wince (disclaimer to forum members: personal opinion!!!). Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
I remember you mentioning before about using gypsy picking for archtop - I've been also working on my own version, incorporating lots of downstrokes on string changes with rest strokes, and occasionally using economy as well. I'm getting much better now in terms of not getting tripped up switching between the two methods. And it swings really hard and feels solid. Interesting thing for me on the archtop, is that I find a thinner pick better facilitates this approach - best way I could explain it is like you're 'feathering' the rest strokes if that makes sense. As always it's a work in progress, but I'm pretty happy with how it's turned out so far - I'm sort of going for that rolling 8ths rhythmic feel Bergara or Moignard get, but with a much lighter touch that suits the archtop. Gives me something to do...
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Bob - as I've never played a tortoiseshell pick, I find it interesting that they're quite rigid - never heard that before, Cheers Originally Posted by uburoibob
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Well yeah Spook! - actually I don't use thinner picks, I was just trolling for v-pick users... Originally Posted by Spook410
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+1 to that. Originally Posted by 3625
From seeing the replies in this thread, it seems most people interpret "strumming" as it is used in pop music or country western. What you described however, the quiet strum, kind of like a harp(pardon the cheese) is what I also was referring to. Unless somebody is going for a four to the bar Freddie Green or a Django pompe, the strumming is implied more subtle in jazz guitar, at least from how I hear it when listening to different players. I see it as strumming the occasional chord and letting it ring. Some players employ a "pick and claw" approach where they pick and use their 3rd and 4th fingers to pick out individual voices. I never mastered that, but I can imagine it being an advantage to be able to seamlessly switch between a strum and finger picking.
It's funny you mentioned Moignard, because it was he along with Rocky Gresset who inspired me to do the gypsy picking switch. This video specifically:
The percussive, powerfull forward-motion Benson sound is huge in France. I believe it was Bireli who made it popular. He adopted it and many players followed. The result is we get monsters like Moignard and Gresset
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AL, Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
For those of us who have played in blues bands...harp players don't strum. They blow (although in my experience, quite a few of them have sucked).
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Man.. the guy on the acoustic was getting a workout. Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
+1 to that.
<snip>
The percussive, powerfull forward-motion Benson sound is huge in France. I believe it was Bireli who made it popular. He adopted it and many players followed. The result is we get monsters like Moignard and Gresset
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I love the sound of a Dunlop Tortex 0.60, which is a lot thinner than most people use for jazz. It allows the note to speak without the 'thunk' that comes with a heavy pick. Credit where credit is due: speaking with Sheryl Bailey one day she pointed out that nobody spends more time on tone than classical guitarists, they spend their life working on their fingernails and picking angles. Flex a Tortex 0.60, it has almost exactly the same properties as a nail. A lighter pick also allows you to keep your hand more relaxed and gives you more dynamic range. It was a breakthrough for me.
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I find that the thicker in picks I go, the harder it is to come back down in size. I'm currently on Jazz III's after 1.0mm and .86mm. I'm starting to think they are too thin now, I might want to go up to at least 1.5 or maybe even 2.0. I get so much more control, speed, and tone with thicker plectrums. Now, as far as strumming, that is a major hurdle to get over. It took me a long time, but I finally achieved a good technique with a thick pick. The sound of my strum is so much better with a 1.25 than say with a .86. Not as clicky.
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Jim Hall, Joe Pass, George Benson, Russell Malone, and Pat Metheny all used medium or thinner picks, based on their statements in a interviews that you can find through Google searches. Hall and Metheny both use lighter strings, as well (0.11s or less).
I prefer a Fender medium for my guitar, and use 0.14 strings. Benson, in particular, made a really great observational statement about either having heavy picks with light strings, or light picks with heavy strings. I took that to heart.
Makes sense to me that something has to give if you're playing at rapid speeds. I like the sound heavy strings with light picks ala Pass and Benson, so I chose to go then on the pick. The gypsy guys like light strings, vibrato, and little bends, so for them the heavy pick makes more sense, I think.
I'd be curious to know what kind of pick Martino uses to get his thick, dark tone. It looked like a standard teardrop shape to me when I saw him live, but I couldn't guess about thickness.
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I know in recent times Martino uses 1.5mm picks, could be made from delrin - he usually uses a standard 351 shape, but also sometimes uses triangles. I've heard in the past he's used thick heavy stone picks. Originally Posted by ecj
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Better talk to Bucky too. LOLOL Originally Posted by ColinO
I've been playing Dunlop purple turtles, 1.14mm for a few years now. Love them!! A couple of weeks ago, a friend I was jamming with gave me a bag full of Dunlop green gator 1.5mm. Total different feel. The purple 1.14mm are much warmer. I find it easier to adjust my pick orientation and grip on the pick to control dynamics on the 1.14s also. One of my Golden Eagles has an inherent warm tone. The 1.5s really helps to brighten it up . . . if that's what I'm after. But, it'll take me some time getting used to toning down the dynamics with that pick on that particular guitar.
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I notice nobody here seems to use stone picks. I think everyone has their
favourite shape - I can only use the large tripoint shape. I started using the
Gibson heavy, then bought a big bag of the Fender heavy which lasted years,
but I found them a bit thin and went thro' a phase of making my own out of
plastic (sometimes wood). Since I discovered agate picks I never use anything
else. I have a few in different thicknesses. I generally use the heaviest (<1.5mm)
for initial practisng; the 1.25 for most playing and there's one about 1mm that I
use with a Les Paul with slightly lighter strings. Pick noise isn't a problem if you're
fairly clean and like to hear the sound of your amp rather than a semi-acoustic
one. One idea is to record yourself with different guitars and picks and objectively
listen to the results. Pat Martino uses them? I'm in good company (and probably
the only thing about my playing which is on a par!) One drawback of the clear
agate picks is that you have to be really careful of where you leave them. I once spent
an hour after a rehearsal looking for a prized one which I left on top of the guitar.
I found it eventually and learned a lesson. Demanding, but worth it.
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Try Dunlop Jazztones. Several sizes, don't flex, and dead quiet.
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Back at you - try agate! Actually I'm willing to try other types - I sent away for wood and horn Originally Posted by RyanM
picks a few months ago from Timber Tones but I didn't like them. The Dunlop Jazztones picks
don't come in Tri-point, so they'd be no good to me. Have you tried Blue Chip picks? They're even
more expensive than agate, but they seem to be finished so you have to use them in a particular
orientation. I asked them but I couldn't get a straight answer about this - the great thing about
a tri-point is you can just pick it up and play without having to check which way round it is.
I read something derogatory here about strumming. When I started playing, I used to strum chords,
holding the pick with the thumb and first and second fingers. When I started single note soloing,
I'd change the grip to using the traditional first finger and thumb. After a while I got bored with that
and used the strumming grip for both. I saw a TV programme with Barney Kessel where he described how
he started using the same grip. After that I figured there was no right way to hold the pick. Over the years
the second finger has curved under a bit, but it's still the same basic grip. I'd recommend it to anyone who
wants a firmer grip and more solid sound. Strum on!
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Yea, I use the 204 for jazz and the 205 for rock. Originally Posted by RyanM
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There's another thread on this subject on the "Everything else" page. One guy
mentions agate picks and got as much interest as when I brought it up!
V-picks sound interesting - I see Jimmy Herring uses the one I'd go for.
Bottom line with all these other picks: they all wear out. Agate picks are
expensive, but last for ever (difficult to test).
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Yer all a buncha wimps, I use a 7mm Wegen pick
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Another Black Ice extra heavy fan here. Originally Posted by Apprentice
I haven't been playing long but have tried quite a lot of picks and the Black Ice is my current favorite.
I think strumming is somewhat dependent on how you use the pick, if you lighten up on it and just use the tip it sounds better. If you are using the same attack as when picking single notes it isn't going to sound nice.
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You can't have speed with the darn thing flopping around? I tear those things in two and throw them in the bin.
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going on nearly 10 years... nothing else feels right
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well i started with dunlop big stubby 3mm when i really wanted to learn to play guitar 6 years ago, then i've tried 2mm gator grip, jazzIII ultex, and stubby 3mm. also V-pick medium rounded and pointed.
now i've added dunlop primetone 3mm small pointed, and primetone 5mm large pointed.
still most of the time i play with the 3mm big stubby but i do ocasionaly use another pick if i'm not feeling confortable/confident with the current one.
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Went to medium celluloid picks for a while now. Been experiencing some finger joint pain with a heavier setup of strings and playing with 2mm picks.
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For the last years I used Jazz II or Jazz I picks, the stiff red nylons. Sometimes I think that especially for rhythm playing I could use something a little more flexible. Last tuesday I forgot to put a pick in my pocket before going to our organ players house for a rehearsal. He searched the house and found a very thin nylon pick in his son's bedroom – the one you'd use for cowboy style strumming. It felt unusual, but for some notes it felt better.
Now I'd love to try the Dunlop Tortex Jazz I in different gauges (they make light, medium and heavy). But online shops here in Germany seem not to carry them. Maybe I have to wait for music store to re-open.
I read somewhere that GB himself use medium picks, but can't find it in the internet.Last edited by guavajelly; 04-02-2021 at 06:40 AM.
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