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Hey, All!
I am very quickly bonding with my new '13 L-5 CT, it's a lovely, lovely beast.
One thing I am finding is, that (possibly because it is a thinner body) the '57 Classics are great sounding pickups but have a bit too much in the mids for my taste. I would rather have a bit more of a scooped mid sound with a tighter bass and treble response.
I know '57 Classics are a mid-heavy pickup, so how do you find them and does anyone here switch them out in favor of something else? I guess I'm looking for a lower output, more musical sounding pickup w/out the super mid action of the '57.
Do you keep your Gibson's stock and use the amp to achieve your sound or do you find the '57s are a bit too mid-heavy as well?
Lux
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07-18-2013 11:54 AM
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Silly question.. did you try backing them off a bit first?
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I think SamBooka was referring to his own question ... at least that was how i read it, as in:
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
"(i have a) Silly question: did you try backing them off first?"
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I love 57 classics. I love Gibson P90s.
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I leave all my Gibson guitar pups stock. If I don't like it I don't buy it.
I went through the pup change thing a L-O-N-G time ago and found that much of the time pups that I liked in one guitar didn't do much for me in another. So I buy what I like, and leave the ones I don't like to someone else :-)
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I am sort of on the fence
My first reaction is to listen to what I have and decide what I do not like
From there I am able to decide that I need to try a different set of strings or a different pick
Cheap and easy first. After that I look at changing simple things like pots and capacitors
I change a lot of pickups but that's really a last resort (Changing my classic 57+ which is a very hot pick up for a Seth lover It's pretty obvious for me)
After a while you know what will be required to get you happy, and you will know that it's just not possible with the guitar that you have. For me, things like graphic EQ'sare just Band-Aids But in all fairness I have enough amps that I usually find something that works well with my guitar
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an un-hot humbucker does it for me without much regard to the exact model. For example, I really like the 490R/490T combination in my Howard Roberts Fusion.
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Silly answer: "One way is to rewire the neck and bridge pickups so that they are out-of-phase with each other in the middle position. Does backing off the guitar tone knob not help?" I don't think that goes to the heart of the question.
I guess you are all medicated up!! Feel better
Changing any p/ups, pots or caps on a hollow body, is not an easy endeavor for most people, even me, and I am a mechanic at heart - always tinkering with guitars. You have to be dead serious you want to go that route!
Try the easy fixes/changes first. I am tempted to try Seth Lovers, even on my L5, but it sounds great in Blackface Fender amps, the older the better (scooped mids).
Or, try the Boss "Fender Deluxe Reverb" pedal. I have the "59 Bassman" pedal, and it is great.
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I'm not a great guitar player, being called mediocre would be a compliment, but I am an electronics lab nerd so I mean no offense at all in what I say below, quite the contrary. I've always wondered about why the issue of pots and caps comes up so often.
I "think" that many players like me leave their pots at or near max, same with tone with the exception of quiet passages where diddling with an amp volume control is not possible.
A 500k volume pot at or near zero isn't going to sound any different than a 250k pot at or near zero, unless there's some real envelope shaping science done with a tone generator I don't know about to prove one pot (brand or value) sounds or even shapes an envelope different than another at zero or across its range.
As far as caps go, they're a filter, and should do nothing at one end, filter out highs on the other end.
I'll bet that in between none and complete roll off that some cap construction (metallized polyester compared to another for example) might make a slight audible difference but there too I haven't seen any real blind studies that one cap type is more pleasing to the ear than another.
Has anyone here ever heard of an "unbiased" test lab conducting any real electrical and or blind study testing?
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i'm sort of a modder by nature. don't care about resale value or what the internet thinks. i find a good shell and swap a few things out until it is what i need it to be. sucky pickups don't bug me much. i could fix that. as long as the wood itself is good, i'm good. assuming the price is right. eq pedals and comps and such could work, but then you'd have to use them every single time you play, anywhere you should find yourself. makes more sense to swap the pups than complicate your chain and carry more stuff around.
there are other "passive" tweaks you could make- swapping the bridge, playing with your knobs, swapping your knobs and caps out, that sort of thing.
or you would work a knob on your amp.
either way. assuming the amp is voiced to your liking.
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I have a Gibson ES137 and over time I started to really hate the stock pickups (490 and 490R not the classic 57s) which I found wayyyyy too muddy (at least in combination with that specific guitar). I guess that relates to the "too much mids". I put in pickups that I had great experience with - a set of TV Jones Powertrons. I know that it is "heresy" to put a Gretschy pickup in a Gibson, but it sounds really very good. It still has a thick humbucker sound but more clarity. If one doen't like the looks (but I do) then TV Jones also sells with more traditional Gibson style pickup covers. I have powertrons in a jazzyfied Gretsch Country Club too (not so much unlike a L5) and they sound great to my ears - and nothing gets boomy or muddy.
and of course - Barenuckles are great great pickups! I have experience with their Flat 50 tele pickups and the Stormy Monday humbuckers and they are simply superb.
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Hey DC Ron
Another HR Fusion owner here.
I'm on my 3rd one.....love them.
Getting on topic, I like the stock 490 pickups too.
For me they are a good match for the instrument.
Not too dark/not too bright.
I did try SD 59's in this guitar....nice but no particular improvements, so I put the original 490's back.
As somebody mentioned earlier, I too have now given up on changing out pickups.
Been doing it for years....I've now elected to go with what the guitar comes with....
If I don't like the instrument, I don't buy it.
Given that the original poster has strong feelings about what is in his guitar, he could do a lot worse
than the 490's...[they're reasonably priced]
Don't buy into all the crapola that you'll find with the plethora of boutique pickups manufacturers,
....most of them making wild claims about how "authentic" their PAF style pickups are.
Try to see the January 2009 Tone Quest Report ...@ The ToneQuest Report | for a free and frank discussion
on the topic of high end repro humbuckers....most informative, and some clear and witty writing on the whole subject.
In the end it's all very subjective.....
For a start, not all early Gibson pickups were the same...in fact they could vary wildly.
I would take the course of exploring the tonal range of the the guitar/amp that you have.
Do this with your ears, not your eyes......[love the one you're with.]
There are sure to be some great sounds in that beautiful L5.
You can change too...to accept what you have...and be open to what it offers you.....meet it half way.
You lucky man you.
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Everyone, thanks for all the great feedback!!
Just to clarify, I am a tinkerer, too - it's all in good fun and I have to say that I love the sound of the L-5 CT w/ the '57s installed...I'm just finding it a bit mid-heavy is all. I have a TI .13 swing set on there now, and think it sounds pretty good.
The tone is quite nice and she plays like a dream...I think I will do some more experimenting with pickup height first, as was suggested above. I think I went straight to the idea of a pickup swap because I recently acquired a 2004 R9 Les Paul and put some Bare Knuckle PG Blues in it, which I find to be quite an improvement...actually, makes me want to play the Les Paul quite a bit for all different styles, now. I could see a set of these in an L-5 as well, with the low output and the scooped mids, out of phase in the middle position.
IF there was a pickup swap in order - I've heard Stormy Mondays and '59 Seths mentioned a well...but, I digress. As with all things guitar, sounds like to each his own!!
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I don't think you mentioned what amp you are using.
If you're using a Fender Amp then you are getting a double mid range frequency whammy.
My L5 sounds great through the Fender Deluxe Rev at low volume.....when you can still hear the guitar acoustically.
As soon as I turn up the amp a little it's "welcome to the nasal festival". A pox be upon it.
Solution was to by an eq pedal and take the offending frequency out. Sounds fabulous.
I tried a Biltoft P90 in the L5. No big difference. Took it out after a week. You can't fight that mid range with a pickup.
I'm not a big fan of changing pickups anymore. It's such a small difference and once again it depends what amp you're using.
I put a Seth Lover in my Tom Painter. (replacing te Biltoft Humbucker)
Result.....meh.....not much difference.
I took the Seth Lover out and put a Gibson P94 in the Painter.Result....meh....not much difference.
Biggest change of tone? Try a different amp.
Since I got the Mambo I have turned my eq pedal off.
Don't need it. Guitars no longer have the mid spike.
I hate that mid spike.
Good luck.
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Hey Philco.. Tweed fenders will double down on the mids.. BF/SF.. not so much ('specially certain models of silverface).
I say this because you have good ears .. were you refering to tweed or tolex ? (you know what I mean lol). Just wondering what your take is.
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Great point -
I have a 1960 Fender Concert Amp...it's basically like a brownface Super on the vibrato channel, and a Tweed Bassman on the 'normal' channel...It was built in the spring of '60 so it's more tweed than BF in many respects - aka, tweed Bassman-era transformers, etc. Has 4x10 alnicos.
I am in need of a smaller amp - looking for something in the 10-15 watt range. Was thinking of going to a Princeton Reverb or Deluxe - leaning toward something with 1 12" speaker, though...any recs??
Just for fun, here's a pic of the amp with an old 1958 Jazzmaster I used to own...still kick myself for trading that guitar. The only one I've gotten rid of that still keeps me up at night!!
Last edited by Lux; 07-19-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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I can only speak for my DR. It's not so bad since I changed the speaker to a Cannabis Rex and disconnected the treble cap (or whatever it is) but if I use it with the L5 I have to use an eq to take the upper mid spike out. It's very useable when it's taken out.
Gibson humbuckers also have a mid spike so the combination is not good for what I want to hear.
But the L5 straight into the Mambo is just fine. Sounds like a jazz guitar.
I have not tried many other Fender amps with my Jazz boxes. I did try a Deluxe Deville but the mids are similar to my DR.
Sounded nice with my ES125 though but that has a P90 and less of that Gibson humbucker mid spike.
In general I much prefer the Gibson P90 in the Fender amps but even then I tend to eq the upper mids.
But the Mambo just does not have that problem.
My point to the OP is that it could be his amp and not the pup. Changing the pup is not a night and day change IMO....at least not changing out one humbucker for another.
I mention it because we have the exact same reaction to that mid sound and we have similar guitars.
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I'm with you, Phil. Picups means less than most people think. I prefer singl coils because they seem to be better balanced than some humbuckers. They don't get muddy in the bass when they highs are dialed in for a round jazz tone. Apart from that, I believe almost anything else can be remedied with a good EQ - either on board the amp ot with a pedal. A very important but often overlooked point is the center freqencies of the tone controls. The AI is (in)famous for its controls which are way off for magnetic PUs. The treble control center frequency on the AI is 10kHz - completely useless for electric guitars. Many people pair the AI with an external EQ for that reason. If no coloring of the tone is wanted, the Empress ParaEQ is good. If the amp is somewhat sterile, a BarbEQ can be the solution. If even more coloring is wanted with PA style amps (say the AI) , few pedals can match the Sansamp Paradriver DI or the Sansamp Blonde. Originally Posted by Philco
I agree that with a Mambo, one can put those pedals in the drawer. I got a Mambo head a couple of months ago and am very happy with it.
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Yeah, I left my HRF just as it is... Originally Posted by DC Ron
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I would play that guitar at least for a year as it is...
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If that's the case, so a magnet swap would get you in the ballpark, the rest will be to find the "sweet spot", something that sounds like you haven't found. Originally Posted by Lux
You need to change the mags to Un-Oriented Alnico 5.
If you're in the US, you can get your mags from here:
Alnico 5 Un Oriented Guitar Magnet 1 Piece Magnetized | eBay
If you're in Europe, PM me.
HTH,
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I've never liked 57 classics and got tired of the highs that I couldn't dial out on my '98 L5 Wes without getting into mud territory. After some reading and research, I decided on a Lollar high wind Imperial. Got the warmth that I was looking for, along with clarity. Really the tone I had been hearing in my head.
the higher wind shifts the emphasis towards the lows, according to Jason Lollar and others and it worked for me!
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Many humbuckers exhibit exactly that problem. That won't happen with single coils. I have P90 in one guitar and Vintage Vibe HCC in two others and am happy with them. But of course single coils hum more than humbuckers (and they are hard to shield effectively in a jazz box). Originally Posted by yebdox
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It depends on the Gibson. I'd never touch the p/us in my '66 ES-335, as they are so fine. On the 2005 SG Standard I picked up recently, in the process of swapping p/us now. I liked they stock ones, but they're a bit high output for me. Plus, I'm using a set of humbuckers (Ian Anderson's) in another guitar which are so wonderful, felt like giving them a try in the SG.
With so many excellent p/u alternatives around these days, why stick with p/us you're not fully satisfied with? I'd rather not change, but don't shy away from it when the time comes. Most guitars I leave the stock p/us in.
MD
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Again, thanks for all the responses!!
I'm going to stick to stock for now, and look for an amp that compliments the guitar. Honestly, she sounds fantastic - may just be me getting used to the sound (I've been playing single coils exclusively for a long time).
Now...the next question is, which amp???
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