Big Band - Rhythm Guitar - Amplifier sounds awful at higher volumes

[swingband]

At 66 years young, I started rythym guitar in a 22-strong big band last year and now I'm 5% up the learning curve, it's wonderful!

I have a budget 335 copy with Wilkinson Humbuckers and a 2-channel 30watt combo amp. This has a contour and a presence control instead of bass - mid - treble filters. I have both contour and presence controls set at zero for optimum sound. It is a budget digital (not a tube) amp and has reverb, delay, flanger chorus, flanger and tremolo effects I haven't found a use for.

I play no solos or improvisation - just chomp out the chords and fills according to the arrangement sheet. So I'm looking to preserve the percussive, thumpy, stringy, woody tones and play at volumes that sit within the rythym section and well under the reed and brass melody and harmonies.

However delightful the amp sounds a volumes less than 25%, with the band I have to play at 70% volume to hear myself through the amp speaker and it's only 3 feet away. (They are noisy!) At 70%, the amp lows are boomy, muddy and the highs are glaring. Gone are the woody, double-bassy low ends and the sweet top ends and the whole stringy flavour I get at low volumes.

To counter any effect that playing on wooden floors might have been adding to the problem, I bought an amp stand and there is an improvement but things still sound over-cooked at 70% volume. I've also ordered an EQ pedal to see if this can help by augmenting the contour and presence controls on the amp.

I've read as much as I can find on this website and there seem to be others with similar problems. If the nature of the guitar amp is that it goes quickly to high gain distortion as the volume increases because that's what the main (rock) market demands, it occurred to me that I should perhaps be looking at a non-guitar amplifier?

I have limited money and space so can't keep buying amps to find which one delivers.

Has anyone tried playing through a accoustic keyboard amplifer, with (at least) a 5-band EQ to attenuate any mains hum, feedback or other unwanted frequencies, in a big band context? Is this in essence what the Henrikson is - a flat response amp?

Or should I perhaps buy a 500watt(!) guitar amp and run it at 5%, transporting it around with a small fork-lift truck and a large brace for my back?

Any thoughts or ideas would help. At 70% volume the set up sounds dog-rough.

[Sphere]

Is it a tube or solid state amp? If it's the latter, 30W is very little, and would account for the breakup.
Another thing to consider is the technique. Electric guitars don't respond the same way an acoustic does to strumming - a much lighter touch is required to make it sound good. A compressor, used right, gives you a bit more of an acoustic response, as well as making the instrument sit in the mix a lot better, so that's another thing to look into. But you should go to a guitar store and check a bunch of different amps, see how they sound cranked.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If you're going SS, a 500W amp head will only weigh a few pounds!

[cosmic gumbo]

Being a frugal guy who's getting too old to lug big amps, I've had success the last 7 or 8 years in a big band using simple, cheap, run of the mill 50-100W SS guitar combo amps with 12" speaker. Fender, Peavey, Crate, Roland, etc. The more basic, the better, IMO. A 30W with a 10" or 12" won't do the job. I've tried and gotten results like you. I don't like keyboard, acoustic guitar amps, etc., as I find them too flat for my tastes.

I'll be looking for a replacement amp soon, and I don't expect to spend more than $150 for something used that will sound good with the volume I need.

[swingband]

It sounds as though you have tried keyboard and acoustic guitar amps, Cosmic Gumbo, and not liked the result. That's useful to know.

Several of the responses above point to an overpowerful 100w solid state solution played at low volumes and that they don't need to weigh any more than any other SS amp with the same size box and speaker.

In researching my problem I've come across the SS Peavey Vypr 3 modelling amp series. Maybe the 100watt version with the accoustic guitar option could offer more than one route to a more acoustic tone. Though it isn't likely to be available second hand, it won't break the bank either.

Any Big Banders out there tried this one yet?

[GodinFan]

I'm in agreement with CG - something SS, 1x12", and 60-100 watts works best.

I've had success with an old Roland Super Cube 60 (60w, 1x12") and a Peavey Studio Pro (similar specs, but with channel switching).

OTOH, if I'm to be a straight ahead rhythm player in the band, I tend to gravitate to a strictly acoustic archtop, like my Loar lh-300.

[swingband]

Thanks everyone, for your help.

I guess I've taken most of the advice offered on the forum. Today I got a Roland Cube 80XL amp - 80watt, solid state, with very clean channel (modelled on the Roland Jazz Chorus) and a 12 inch speaker.

I love it! It's such a great improvement on the Laney Linebacker LR35 it replaces, which broke up quickly before half volume, as perhaps it should - if it's been predominantly designed for use as a rock amp.

The Roland is very quiet, in comparison, when idle. No hiss or hum. The clean channel is sublime in comparison to the Linebacker. Minimal colouration. Stays quite clean right up to 9/10 volume if you keep the Gain right down.

I haven't had time to try all the gizmos but since trying the lead channel's Acoustic mode and the Octave effect - I can't tear myself away. The Octave effect is brilliant. It sounds like you're playing over a string bass! If I can master the tone properly, I think it will be very useful for those occasions when the bassist can't make it to the practice or gig.

I'm only at the beginning of the long learning curve but feel this amp has moved me on a good way in finding a more natural sound for a Big Band. Thanks everyone.

[mr. beaumont]

My two cents...

you can play in a big band with a 335 style guitar, but asking it to do what an archtop would do is a lot.

you say you have the controls set for an "optimal sound." But then you say it sounds bad! Where does that tone sound best? At home? Empty stage before the others start up? Often, the tone I use with a group is quite different than the tone I use alone.

Generally, if you're playing traditional "four on the floor" big band rhythm, it's not so much about volume...it's tone. Archtops could be felt in a big band because they occupied frequencies the other instruments didn't.

so if you want that sound, you're going to need to play with EQ.

edit: sounds like the bigger amp is helping...good.

[docbop]

Reading the post I think the problem is more about him hearing himself as the big band gets cranking and all the horns blaring. Yes, 30watts isn't much for a SS amp and a bigger one isn't going to weight much more with SS. But I can see him getting into a situation where he's too loud for the rest of the band just trying to hear himself. He also didn't say what the speaker configuration was, I bet its a 12". When I played in big bands I tended to use my Super Reverb or Princeton the 10" not only cut thru more, it was also easier to hear in confined space. He might want get the amp back on the floor and tilt it up towards him more like a monitor it should still get out to front of band.

Could be more about learning to hear himself, than gear, but probably need more SS power.

[swingband]

Achieving 'optimal sound' was in the context of having only a presence and a contour control but no gain control on the Linebacker and that when the volume was turned beyond, say, 40%, there was increasing gain which started to distort the "percussive, thumpy, stringy, woody tones" which had previously been fine at less than 40% volume. (I suspect that there was gain was built into the volume control. The Linebacker had a 10inch speaker.) So, in essence, the tone was great under 40% volume but this volume wasn't enough to heard against the band - heard both by me and by the Director, who kept asking me to turn up the volume. This problem with the Linebacker was the same at my home, in the practice hall and at gigs.

With the new Roland Cube, there are separate bass, mid, treble and presence controls on the clean channel so together with the higher power available (80 versus 35watt) the amp stays cleaner through volume increases whilst putting out more sound.

[I also recognise the point about not being able to hear what I was playing against the higher sound level of the band. However, this has receded as an issue because I've found that an amp stand gets the amp off the floor - and minimises increased boominess in the bass through floor-coupling problems - and it tilts the speaker up towards me.]

Thanks everyone for your views.

[swingband]

Oh, I forgot, there seems to be another issue implicit in some views that have been offered, which hadn't occurred to me before. There seems to be view that tube amps produce more output per nominal stated wattage than solid state amps?


Is this the prevailing view and if so, is there a rule of thumb about their proportionality? Like, for instance, a 100w solid state amp is roughly equivalent in output to a 70watts tube amp?

[docbop]

Oh, I forgot, there seems to be another issue implicit in some views that have been offered, which hadn't occurred to me before. There seems to be view that tube amps produce more output per nominal stated wattage than solid state amps?


Is this the prevailing view and if so, is there a rule of thumb about their proportionality? Like, for instance, a 100w solid state amp is roughly equivalent in output to a 70watts tube amp?

With a little Google'ing you'll find lots of articles on this topic, here's one.

logictortured.com Blog » Why Do Tube Amps Sound Louder Than Solid State Amps?

[swingband]

Thanks - so it's all about clipping!

[aaronagre]

Although the new amp seems to have fixed your problem, it sounds like your original issue could be due to a FM curve or a similar equal loudness contour as you begin to kick the volume up. a boss ge7 graphic equalizer would fix that problem, if you do your research and figure out which frequencies are kicking in.

[swingband]

Hi Aaaronagre,

Yes, I did get an equaliser and I tried it with the old amp (which had no "gain" control, only "presence" and "contour"). It helped but didn't eliminate the problem. Maybe because I didn't diagnose the offending frequencies properly?

However, the new Roland Cube solid state 80w amp, gives me just about the volume I think I need on the "Clean" channel.

I am now content about the tonal result. In hindsight, I think I should have considered seeking out an old Roland JC120 to give me cleaner sound at much louder volumes but it might also have given me a bad back.

Thanks for your help.

[Sailor]

Love my Polytone mini-Brute

[thepromise]

don't worry about hearing yourself so much bro. instead of the playing volume being at 70% you will cut through more at 55-60% volume. slide a little presence/contour in there and you should be good to go. ask folks sitting off stage how you sound or if they can hear you. I bet they can. I bet this is a case of you worring about you. good bigband guitarist who just play cords are hard to come by. bet you are really good. relax. am sure the band can hear you just fine as the rhythm is really needed and makes shit swing.

[rkwestcoast]

Two other suggestions to help you cut through the band:

- change your tuning from concert A=440 hz to concert A= 444hz - this will add a little bite to your playing and help listeners to hear the guitar

- it might also be worth looking at bringing the treble setting up little if it is dialled off again to help you cut through

Good luck with it - at the moment I'm only playing in duo settings but would love to be in a big band

[jtizzle]

I assume since you're just "chomping" out chords, you're playing in a traditional big band setting? (Basie/Ellington style), in that case, and sadly enough for us, guitars aren't really important in this setting (although some Freddie Green lovers will counter me), but we're kind of expendable. Many big bands don't include guitars, and the arrangements don't even have guitar parts. A great player, Yotam Silberstein, told me once that in this case of big band playing, almost anything you play doesn't matter, and the most important part of this playing is the rhythm. Basically, says to set up so all that cuts through the band is your guitar strums, the notes don't even have to be audible, but if your "chunks" can cut through together with the bass walking, it creates a really heavy bounce that the whole band can use to play off.

I like to take my role a little more seriously though, so I do play the right chords
As far as your amp, if you're trying to get the notes to cut through as well, I suggest a bigger amp with more wattage. 30w is plenty for a small group setting, but when you're trying to compete with horns (and especially if you're playing in a more modern BB setting where guitars have a little more important role), you're gonna need something bigger. I have a 60w Fender Blues DeVille 212 which I use for everything, and with just a little touch over the 1 volume setting, I get enough volume for a BB setting, and if I'm playing in smaller groups, I even have to roll off my guitar volume or use a volume pedal.

[fritz jones]

the amateur big bands I have played in were always too loud, as a result of poor musicianship of the horn section.
A good band like Basie's would play at moderate volumes or even softly enough that unamplified guitar could be heard.

[swingband]

All this background is helping to put my difficulties into context. The comment about the horns etc being too loud certainly chimes with our band Director often saying that we need to concentrated more on dynamics (ie resist putting everything out at 100%).

As far as the amp is concerned, I'm pleased with the 80w Roland Cube but am still intrigued to read of more and more instances of players using PA amps (guitars both miked and pickup'd) in the search for a more natural tone.

It is useful also to hear from a great player that the role of the guitar in a big band is subsidiary and its contribution is as much rythym as musical content.

I would like to say here that I have really appreciated reading peoples' views on this site and how helpful the forum has been to me. Thank you all.

[thepromise]

I have to disagree. guitars are really important in a big band if he/she is a part of it. the guitarist SHOULD have a chance to solo. it can change the mood one way or another. listening to freddy green / marty grolch and other rhythm guitarist will refute any notion that the guitar is not needed. listen to bireli lagrene with the WDR big band. Silberstien is a good player but don't any of you let anyone be it a GIANT on guitar or teacher or whatever tell you the guitar player doesn't matter. it is an irresponsible statement that can kill the appetite of a less than confident guitarist. don't just don't run out and get a louder/bigger amp cause someone tells you as we don't know your financial situation. borrow one maybe. listen I use a 15 watt VOX pathfinder and it is too loud. I can play jazz or even rock and it cuts through. experiment with the amp. get a friend to record you in the audience and become educated or venue room acoustics by going out and listening. not trying to put down anyones ideas just saying let the decision on what you do be because you did your homework ok.

[ChrisDowning]

Sounds like you have that Home sound v Live sound issue. When most players are at home they use a very plummy rich, bassy tone that sounds great soloing. Also the volume is way below live levels. You need to get a lot of that bass out of your sound for live work - the piano, trombone, and bass player have that covered, so they don't need you turning up and trying to "fill out" the bass parts. You need more mids to fit right into a large band - and you know what - you'll be able to hear yourself without all that bass clutter.

[swingband]

Yes, much of that makes sense - I'll give turning down the bass a try at the next rehearsal.

[RyanM]