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Looking for the cap and the right micro farad value that will give me a tone pot behaving like a steep low pass filter... for an inexpensive but nevertheless impressive Yamaha Pacifia 212 vfm Strat, already customized with Gotoh locking tuners, Graphtech string savers classic, and a SD Lil'59 in the neck.
It is on the bright side, which i like, and with the Lil'59 in humubucker position i already get some nice tones but i would like to have the option of radically cutting off the trebles, without touching any EQ.
The actual tone pot does shave the trebles but at the same time takes off too much mids, like a gentle (not steep) lp filter. Actually, it has two caps in series, which might be great for some folks (mid scoop), but not for me.
What cap at at what value will give me something like a 24 dB low pass filter ? Kill the trebles down to 2 or 3 kHz but preserve all the meat and honk ? And possibly no resonance !
I have a Mullard tropical fish .047 on my Ibanez AGS83, not bad, but there should be even better.
Any idea ?
Thanks a lot.
Last edited by xuoham; 06-20-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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06-18-2013 04:09 AM
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I dont even want to think about it.. but you will have to also consider the value of the tone pot, volume , impedance of the pickup.
If you ONLY want to change the cap then buy one of each value (cheap chicklet caps are fine.. you are just trying to find the right value.. ) and go to town
If you REALLY REALLY REALLY want to go nuts with this you will get usefully information from Duncan Amps Tone Stack Generator. You will have to fudge some of the values since it is intended for calculating response curves of the tone stack in instrument amplifiers.
Sorry couldnt help more. Someone knowledgeable will chime in soon.
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What you are looking for is not a "24db" low pass filter but a "24db/octave" low pass filter. Unfortunately, you can only get 6db/octave with the single resistor/pot and capacitor in guitars. Laws of physics. This is in that graph in your post.
In order to get that real fast dropoff, you'll need a parametric equalizer, either in a pedal or in a modeler.
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Re: the video, I like that, in his "quest for tone", dude is using a "Tonequest" Les Paul.
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Thanks for the help guys.
Sambooka, you're right, i forgot that the pot value is very important !
Woody, those Stewmac vids are great ! I wish he made us listen to the difference with the tone pot at zero though.
Yes, i know, as the graph says,
Originally Posted by FrankyNoTone
.... i used to be a synth freak !
I should have been more precise. that's confusing, indeed.
Oh thanks ! Really ? Then i guess i could stack them, no ? Originally Posted by FrankyNoTone
One thing my slow mind still doesn't get is, out of .022 uF and .047uF, wich one will preserve the mids the most while rolling off the trebles ? .047uF is supposed to be the darker, so i was thinking that actually, for a humbucker, maybe .022uF would still sufficiently roll off the highs but since it is a less dark value it would not cut off as low as the mids (even though with 6dB/Octave it seems the mids would still get effected).
But as you say FrankyNoTone, since it might be only achievable with an EQ, maybe i'd better
give up on this and do music instead ;-)Last edited by xuoham; 06-18-2013 at 10:14 PM.
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You're best bet is to experiment with a few different capacitor values to find something that pleases your ear. You're not going to meet the specs you've cited with the simple passive tone control circuit in a guitar. Moreover, unless you've already prototyped the sound you've spec'd (e.g. using an active filter), your guess is probably off-base anyhow...
Some slight corrections and clarifications:
1) Rolled all the way off, the LC filter formed by the pickup's inductance and the tone-pot's capacitor has a 12 dB/octave rolloff.
2) Not rolled all the way off, the tone-pot's resistance and the capacitor form a 6 dB/octave filter. There's likely to be some interaction with the pickup's inductance as the tone pot gets closer to the rolled-off end.
3) There's almost certainly always going to be a resonant peak. I think that lowering the value of the volume pot will bring down the resonant peak, but you probably won't like the way it sounds.
4) The type of capacitor really doesn't matter. It's the capacitor's value that's important.
5) That video is probably best viewed as a qualitative indicator of the changes you might expect. The outcome of your own cap change will probably be different, depending upon the electrical characteristics of your own guitar's pickup(s) and the values of the pots in your guitar.
If by "stacking" you mean adding a capacitor to the existing tone pot, then: no. When you combine capacitors, they still behave just like one capacitor. Originally Posted by xuoham
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TyeDyedevil,
Thanks a lot for this spot on answer !
Very interesting.
One day i really want to take a lesson about all this ... all that concerns electric guitar guts.Last edited by xuoham; 06-19-2013 at 12:39 AM.
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While I certainly wouldn't want to discourage you from learning something that's new, interesting and potentially useful, I'll caution you that there's a limited predictive value in knowing about guitar electronics. The sound that you experience is largely subjective and highly dependent upon context. Originally Posted by xuoham
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Thanks for this. One additional thing that came up in another relatively recent thread is the fact that the tone circuit is a shelving filter. So its really a tone "shaping" control rather than a strict low pass filter. So a wiring mod and component adjustment could come closer to low pass at the right 2-3k cutoff, like this idea: Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil
GM Arts - Guitar Pickups
Another option would be to use 25+ft of high capacitance guitar cable with volume not maxed, which some people do. Combined, that would be in 3rd order or 18db/octave range: pickup inductance+tone capacitor+cable capacitance.
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Thanks a lot ! Gosh, that sounds like Chinese to me ... Originally Posted by FrankyNoTone
By any chance, any book recommendations, like "electronics for dummies" ? Just can't figure those diagrams on the gm arts website, and i'd like to at last be a bit less puzzled when stuff like impedance, pot values, a,b,c curve, etc ... arises.Last edited by xuoham; 06-19-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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Having the desired control on board the guitar is one approach. We are talking about personal taste here, but I'm not sure that I would want that approach myself. I prefer to leave the guitar as is and do the EQ at the amp or - if needed - at an external EQ box/pedal before the input in the amp. Originally Posted by xuoham
When I use my AI head (which is very clean and somewhat bland sounding in itself) I put a Sansamp Paradriver DI in front of it to color the sound a bit and to compensate for the less than ideal EQ for magnetic pickups on the AI head. The Paradriver has immense tone shaping capabilities. If you are satisfied with the sound as such from the amp and just want to add more IQ than the amps tone stack can provide, you can use either a graphic EQ or a parametric EQ in front of the amps input. I use to set my tone on the amp and the EQ unit to my liking and then add a little extra treble. I can then get the desired tone with a little cut off on the ordinary tone control on the guitar (which is just a treble cut off) and thus have the final tone adjustment on board the guitar.
With this modular approach, I can use different guitars with the amp + EQ pedal setup and still get close to my pet tone - or use the same guitar for different tones for different kinds of music. I like the mentioned Sansamp Paradriver DI a lot and find it very flexible and versatile. I can dial in a tone indestinguishable from the tone of my Mambo amp head (which has a very pleasing jazz tone with the controls set flat). Forum member Jorge don't like his Paradriver DI so much for magnetic pickups, however. Another former forum member, Jack Zucker, got a great tone with a BarbEQ (which I believe is discontinued by now).
As for clean, transparent EQ, the Empress ParaEQ pedal is great and it can provide some clean boost as well. Being parametric, its use is not so intuitive as a graphic EQ, so some practice is likely needed.
BTW, why will you like to "radically cut off the treble"? With a radically cut off treble, the tone will loose most of its definition (of course depending on the cut off frequency), and chords will sound muddy with no clear note separation. Maybe all that is necessary is to roll off the treble a little and adjust the mids subtly.Last edited by oldane; 06-20-2013 at 05:25 AM.
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Thanks for your time Oldane ^ ^
Well, yes, that's wise: i'm already very happy like this and shaping the tone with an EQ on my Zoom G3.
I guess the problem on this Strat is that there seem to be two capacitors, one being responsible for the mids scoop.
Never felt the need for another cap/tone pot on my other guitars.
Just being a bit maniac and fetishist on this. Since i got it brand new for so cheap, like it a lot, i thought that if i customize also the tone pot it would be great, but the wisdom is actually to stop this kind of g.a.s fetishism on this toy and actually make music.
I like a lot the low pass filter sound, compared to shelving, it's a nice tone to add to the palette once in a while, cutting off down to 3kHz ... not really muddy ... woolly (ah... words ... ).
Maybe it's because i tend not to use amp sims a lot and that i use a flat amp, so i don't have the natural cut off from the guitar amp speaker.
Anyway once again this forum was so helpful !
Much more classy in real life, the cheap photo doesn't do it justice
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I used to use a Moog Low Pass Filter for getting rid of the high end. In 4-pole mode with no envelope and no resonance, it was a great tone control. On the down side, it would be super expensive for that single purpose. On the plus side, it does other things really well, too.
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Bryan, actually i use the moog filter simulation on the Zoom G3, it's nice because it has a mix parameter so i can still keep some high end by dialing a bit of the dry signal... well then it's no more a "radical" filter but it works good, much better than amp sims that always cut too much low end and i have a sound with character, very close to an amp. Originally Posted by Bryan T
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Despite what is often said, a Strat can have a very nice and warm jazz tone provided its set up for it. When looking at your photo, I can see that you have it strung up with not so fat (the unwound G string) roundwound strings. You may want to go up in gauge to say 12-52 and may also want to give flatwounds a try. I have a stock Strat strung with D'Addario Chromes 13-56, and it's not overly bright in any way. The position of the neck pickup on a Strat right under the string node at the imaginary 24th fret ensures that warm and spread sound.
Last edited by oldane; 06-20-2013 at 01:06 PM.
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Oh, i didn't know that !!! Thanks ! Originally Posted by oldane
Yes, for the strings i have the D'addario exl115 49/11, because this guitar is being used for a variety of tones and styles, cafe gig.
Indeed, i can get nice jazz tones out of it, even before putting the Lil'59, the (alnico) stock pickups are surprisingly good, i just swapped the neck single coil p.u. because i wanted the humbucker / coil split option.
Thank you for the advice, really appreciated.Last edited by xuoham; 06-20-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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There's also this:
Stellartone - HOME
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"Drop in replacement for your dull, unsused tone pot" ...hahaha ... wait, that's me ! Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil
It seems like it's exactly what i was thinking about !
Thanks !
Too bad my tone pot also is the push/pull for the humbuckers' coil split ... better leave the soldering to my guitar guy, i guess. ^ ^
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