Neck Relief

[Klatu]

I was curious to find out how much relief other players like in their necks. I usually set up my electrics with no relief whatsoever while allowing for a hair of relief in my acoustics.

Another observation is that I tolerate higher action on my 11/16" nut guitars than on my 3/4" nut ones.

[Jazz_175]

Don't you get buzzing frets if you set up the guitars with no relief and low action?

[PTChristopher]

For my own guitars I go with about the thickness of the E string (so .012) or a touch less.

For others, barring any reason to do otherwise, I go for about the thickness of the B string.

And in general, more relief with higher action, less with lower.

Chris

[HighSpeedSpoon]

How do you guys measure "relief" please?

The manufacturers of my guitars prescribe the same method of measuring relief, but with different limits. For example, Fender says a feeler gauge under the 8th fret of the 6th string should be between .008" and .018" with a capo installed on the first fret and the last fret depressed. PRS uses this method but recommends a minimum clearance of .010".

Do you measure relief this way, or if not then how? -- Thanks.



BTW, I like more than the minimum clearance. Maybe my picking is too heavy, but I get some subtle buzz on a few frets if I reduce the relief too much.

[PTChristopher]

>>> How do you guys measure "relief" please?

Hiya 'Spoon,

I just look at it.

A flat feeler gauge will be hard to use, with small tilts causing errors (while convincing one that since they used a tool, it must be exactly right.)

A wire feeler gauge is easily made from a bit of guitar string. Then do it a dozen times and you notice that you can consistently eyeball within maybe .002" of a string that is right there on the guitar anyway.

This sounds hard, but look at a .012 E and a .016 B. You can pretty easily visually split the difference. This would be less than a +/- .002" tolerance - and definitely close enough on a wooden guitar.

+/- .002" means you are within changes that will happen in the normal drift of wood with temp and humidity.

Note that in effect Fender and PRS are saying pretty much the same thing within normal tolerance on a hunk of wood.

If you use a capo, set it as lightly as possible - "stun" not "kill". A hard capo clamp will cause the strings to arc slightly upward past the first fret, this makes your relief look like more than it is.

Funny, huh? If you use a pile of Stewmac tools, but are a little heavy on the capo, then you are far less accurate than an experienced person doing 10 guitars quickly by eye/feel. The irony,...

>>> Maybe my picking is too heavy, but I get some subtle buzz on a few frets if I reduce the relief too much.

So you play the guitar, not the other way around. Adjust it to serve you. Sounds like you have it all under control just fine - time to play something,...

Chris

[HighSpeedSpoon]

Thanks Chris. FWIW <prepare to laugh> when I measure relief with the feeler gauge, I wear a head-lamp and high powered readers so as to see the tilt or lack thereof very clearly ... and it is still a pain. But I am open to trying the steel string method.

As for playing the guitar and not the other way round: Thanks for that too.

[Jazz_175]

And in general, more relief with higher action, less with lower.

Chris

Hi Chris,
I don't understand the above statement.
I came to the conclusion that
If the action is high the guitar is harder to play and it will be even harder if more relief is given to the guitar.

Could you comment on your statement and tell me if my statement is correct?
thanks

[kris]

Nice video.

[oldane]

Thanks Chris. FWIW <prepare to laugh> when I measure relief with the feeler gauge, I wear a head-lamp and high powered readers so as to see the tilt or lack thereof very clearly ... and it is still a pain. But I am open to trying the steel string method.

As for playing the guitar and not the other way round: Thanks for that too.

I have always set the relief by feel and by sighting down thee neck. I have aimed for a relief which gives about the same fretting resistance all over the neck - which incidently (or maybe it's no incident) is also the relief which gives the same ''buzz threshold'' all over the neck. I'm perfectly in line with PTChris that a higher action calls for more relief (because the higher action is chosen to allow for a digging in more to get a louder volume which means a wider string amplitude).

BTW, not two guitars are exactly the same. One one, the relief may be more pronounced in the lower part of the neck. On another one, on the higher part of the neck. Some guitars exhibit a bit more relief on the bass side than on the treble side or vice versa. So setting the relief is not 100% exact science in this world of imperfect human creations (guitars in this case).

I came to the conclusion that
If the action is high the guitar is harder to play and it will be even harder if more relief is given to the guitar.

Two things:

1) You can lower the action at the bridge efter adjusting the relief with the truss rod.

2) Easy fretting is not the only objective when setting up a guitar. If one wants a louder sound on an acoustic guitar without buzz and string slap, a higher action is needed to accomodate for the more forceful picking. And yes, the guitar is then harder to fret - but that's the way it is. Check out Freddie Greens - deliberately chosen - murderously high action:

[HighSpeedSpoon]

@Kris

Thanks. His definition is clear as a bell. I am not sure that I buy his argument that the 6th fret is where the string goes up and down the most (on any guitar), but it doesn't matter to me. Still, on my guitars, the 5th fret is closer to 1/4 of the scale length. Just sayin ...

[PTChristopher]

>>> Hi Chris,
>>>I don't understand the above statement.

Probably best to quickly summarize relief:

- In principle, if you want reasonably equal buzz-resistance all over the FB, then relief is added to somewhat match the arc of the fundamental vibration of the string.

- If you want to really dig in and attack hard without troubling buzz, then you will want a generally higher action that also includes a relief that matches the greater arc of a hard-attack on the string.

- If you want super speed and ease of playing and are willing to lighten up to let low action work, then less relief will be fine with the lower arc of the vibrating strings, and it will also keep your action fast and low in low FB positions (assuming you have the nut set up well). Had to mention the nut,...

- There are plenty of reasons to NOT follow this guideline.

- Imagine a manouche player who wants fast comping down low on the FB and does not mind some washboard scratch to the sound from fret buzz while comping. Then this same player wants bright clarity and max volume as he solos up the FB. He may really prefer higher action but almost no relief at all.

- Now imagine a metal player who wants to really slash chords down low, but stomps on the Tube Screamer for his volume during super-fast solos. In this case you may need plenty of relief for light strings and a windmill right hand technique for chords, but a very low action for solos which are played fast and fairly light.

- It all works if you make the guitar work for your style. Guidelines are a starting place.

>>>I came to the conclusion that
>>>If the action is high the guitar is harder to play and it will be even harder if more relief is given to the guitar.

I think it best to think of action and relief as interactive but separate things.

I can set the 12th fret action at 2mm, then by loosening the truss rod and lowering the bridge I can still have the same 2mm at the 12th fret, but more relief. Note that this condition now actually gives you less fret clearance when playing at the 12th fret even though the so-called "action" is still 2mm.

So yeah, more relief will raise the action in practice, and there is no clear way to describe action without also describing relief (and nut height).

SO when we say the "action" is 2mm at the 12th fret, this can mean a VERY wide variety of playing conditions at this 12th fret depending on the nut height and the relief.

None of this answers your question directly, but maybe it frames the situation a bit?

So,...

>>>I came to the conclusion that
>>>If the action is high the guitar is harder to play and it will be even harder if more relief is given to the guitar.

Yes, depending on how you want to define "action", you are right in my opinion.

So a complete view of action, relief, and nut height is the way to get the guitar working for you.

But if your so-called action is too high and you have trouble with low position buzz and low position chords are hard to play and out of tune:

You may very well be best off lowering the nut (assuming that it is a bit high), adding relief, and possibly even LOWERING the bridge by the time you are done to improve the playability of your guitar for your style.

Confusing in words, but much less so if you fool with guitars for a while.

In my cranky view, all the tools in the world do not good without this overall view of things. Tools also do harm if they isolate each adjustment from an overall understanding of how it all works together to get where we want to be.

My opinion, which has its inconveniences I think.

Chris

[boatheelmusic]

I fret the low E at the 1st and 14th frets, then "tap" the string against the 6th or 7th fret. Want just a very little "tap".

Then, check the high E the same way.

I think the bridge adjustment takes care of height above 14.

[Jazz_175]

Hi Chris,
thanks a lot for your detailed explanation.

[PTChristopher]

Ciao Paolo,

I hope my opinion on this makes it clear that going 'against the rules' can be absolutely a good thing for some playing styles.

Chris

[jdaguitar2]

I set the old ES-175 to about 0.015" at the 8th fret (using the feeler gauge and the stewmac string action gauge that has thousandth increments .015" is about 1/64) with action measuring about 5/64" (.078) at the 12th fret bass side and 4/64" on the 12th fret treble side.

This gives me enough clearance to play with some force on the low strings and a little less on the high side.

[mikeSF]

Freddie Green video: i knew he had very high action but until seeing this video had no idea what "high" meant!
wow. who can argue with his results?

[Patrick2]

All of my guitars, hollow bodies, semi's and solid bodies are set up with zero relief. None. Straight as a sniper's rifle shot (for the first 100 feet . . . LOLOL). I like my action low and fast. In the past, I was often at odds with some guitar tech's on that. One in particular once told me that he was pretty sure he knew more than I did about proper set up. While I readily agreed with him, that he did in fact know more than I did about the proper set up of a guitar . . . (at that time in my life) . . . I also assured, with a facial expression that I'm sure was somewhat less than a smile, that I owned the f*****g guitar and not him . . . and he would either set it up to my liking or someone else would. He did a wonderful job and the guitar played exactly the way I wanted and expected it to play. He's a great tech . . . but, I never went back to him.

There are currently only four tech's/luthiers on this planet that I will allow to touch any of my guitars. Aaron Cowles, Ronaldo Orlandoni, Phil Jacoby and Steve Hayes. There is a pecking order that I use when selecting between those four . . . and it's dependent upon what I need or what I want done. I'm sure that there are others who are equally as good . . . and more than likely still others who might even be better. But, I can walk in to any of these four guys' shops and put my guitar down without saying a word. Then, pick it up later in the day . . or even stay and wait for its completion . . . without even uttering a word about how I want it to be set up.

My pick attack is very light on my arch tops. When I want to vary the tone based upon my pick attack, I usually do so by adjusting pick orientation more so than digging in. On my solid bodies and semi's . . . I'll usually employ pinch harmonics more so than a heavier touch.

If I have a guitar that buzzes or frets out . . . then, I've got more of a fret leveling issue than I do a neck relief issue. I'll have the guitar addressed accordingly.

[PTChristopher]

[PTChristopher] >>> going 'against the rules' can be absolutely a good thing for some playing styles

[Patrick2] >>> with zero relief. None. [...] and the guitar played exactly the way I wanted and expected it to play.

Weirdo.

[Patrick2] >>> I usually do so by adjusting pick orientation more so than digging in.

This is a HUGE part of the picture in my view. Some players can make absolutely anything buzz (and they sit and expect you to fix it,...). Others can vary sound, volume, and attack character all over the place while staying nice and clean.

Asbestos I can tell, the attack can be mostly horizontal, mostly vertical, very stable in axis (staying in its initial direction), or very quickly changing direction. I can not possibly figure out all the variables involved, but you can really see it while watching someone play.

Sometimes I can convince myself that wrist angle and stiffness has something to do with it.

Buzz is not all about amplitude even though amplitude is a big part of the picture.

In my opinion.

Chris

[kris]

If you have good instrument/ I mean from good wood,good costruction,good made,good set up/- it is easer to play on it.

[VitalSigns]

The whole action/neck relief/light strings thing is of great interest to those who
consider tone less important than speed: Paganini had special strings made not so he
would sound warmer or louder. For me, I've been in a dilemma for years. A very low
action and light strings and I can play with no resistance - I can soar. This works for
overdriven/rock sounds, but if you want a cleaner Jazz tone, with reverb and
no chorus, you have to use heavier strings and maybe compromise on
the relief/action a bit - tho' what you hear thro' the amp will decide how
low you can go. Ultimately, you can't cheat on this, it has to be the sound
you hear, rather than the notes. Listening to the great players of the past
40 years who use light strings, like McLaughlin, Coryell, Stern, Joe Pass (sorry!),
Jim Hall (sorry again!) - compared to Wes, Scofield (mainly), Adam Rogers,
Pat Martino for example, just takes away the edge of total commitment, where
you're not thinking "yeah, love that, but I really hate that thin tone".

[mikeSF]

I didn't realize we were now talking about action and string gauge but I definitely do not like very low action because I dig in quite a bit and that simply doesn't work for me. I get the reasons for wanting fast and clean playing of course and love to hear players who use a completely different technique than mine.

[VitalSigns]

Yeah, sorry if that was off topic - I can see that a lot of players who use relatively
heavy strings are also after a low action - I'm one of them. I notice a number
of players who post videos on YouTube etc demoing archtops, really go for an
acoustic-rich sound, as if there seems to be a retro conservative movement in
that direction. In that case, I assume these players would require more
relief than those who are more interested in what comes out of the amp.
Then again, players such as Martin Taylor aren't using a high action either.
Ultimately, relief is really about the quality of your fret setup, done for most
of us by a luthier or tech guy.

[helios]

My trusty neck relief tools courtesy of Grizzly Industrial: