Why are "Class D" amplifiers expensive?

[D.G.]

I have owned many, many solid state amps and I have owned many, many tube amps. Not all amps are created equal. I've played some tube amps that have been real dogs and I've played some solid state amps that have been pretty good and, for some applications, excellent. However, I find that if you like to play at the edge of breakup, only a tube amp will really get you there. Also, a solid state power section with a tube pre doesn't seem to react the same as a full tube pre with tube power section, and vice versa. I don't think tubes by themselves are magic, but I do think that all the design required to make a tube amp go in conjunction with the tubes themselves produces some very desirable results.

For my own needs, I've settled on 2 tube amps for all my electric work -- Fender Princeton RI and Fender Twin RI -- and 3 solid state amps for my acoustic needs -- ZT Lunchbox Acoustic, Fishman SA 220 and Crate Taxi (for very low volume, no mains power needs.) I've never played a modeler I've liked, but YMMV.

[dingusmingus]

What I'd really like is something just like my Carvin power amp in a non-rack mount, small form factor case that could sit on top of a small RE cab. I don't need a pre-amp as part of it. I'd rather stay with my modeler for that.

Hi Jim,
Have you ever looked at these?
Dayton Audio DTA-100a Class-T Digital Amplifier 50 WPC Provides Power To Computer Speakers, Bookshelf Speakers, Headphones, And More! 300-383

It's a cheap 50 Watt-per-channel class D stereo amplifier. Tiny little thing. I use it to power stereo speakers and it does just fine. Not sure how many watts you need, but it might be worth looking into if you haven't already.

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't look like it can be bridged, so probably not right for you.

[jorgemg1984]

I have owned many, many solid state amps and I have owned many, many tube amps. Not all amps are created equal. I've played some tube amps that have been real dogs and I've played some solid state amps that have been pretty good and, for some applications, excellent. However, I find that if you like to play at the edge of breakup, only a tube amp will really get you there. Also, a solid state power section with a tube pre doesn't seem to react the same as a full tube pre with tube power section, and vice versa. I don't think tubes by themselves are magic, but I do think that all the design required to make a tube amp go in conjunction with the tubes themselves produces some very desirable results.

For my own needs, I've settled on 2 tube amps for all my electric work -- Fender Princeton RI and Fender Twin RI -- and 2 solid state amps for my acoustic needs -- ZT Lunchbox Acoustic and Fishman SA 220. I've never played a modeler I've liked, but YMMV.

If you want hedge of breakup than yes tubes are the way to go. For clean, clean, clean I don't hear very big differences to tell you the truth.

I also think most people who compare tube amps with solid state amps compare apples and oranges and ignore lots of big differences between them. A fender blackface has a huge mid scoop compared to the common flat frequency in jazz amps; tube amps tend to be open back cabinets with guitar speakers versus closed back ported cabs with bass pa speakers on jazz amps; reverrb is usually spring on tube amps vs hall room digital modes on jazz amps.

I have an henriksen head (flat) and I am getting a Barb EQ soon. I would love to compare it with a blackface fender head trough the same cab and the same reverb pedal. That would be honest comparison.

[Jim Soloway]

Hi Jim,
Have you ever looked at these?
Dayton Audio DTA-100a Class-T Digital Amplifier 50 WPC Provides Power To Computer Speakers, Bookshelf Speakers, Headphones, And More! 300-383

It's a cheap 50 Watt-per-channel class D stereo amplifier. Tiny little thing. I use it to power stereo speakers and it does just fine. Not sure how many watts you need, but it might be worth looking into if you haven't already.

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't look like it can be bridged, so probably not right for you.

I have looked at it and my first thought was that it wasn't enough power but now I'm not so sure. I've tried running both the RE NY8 and the RE Stealth 10 off of my little VHT amp. It seemed to drive both of them just fine and it's only 6 watts.

[D.G.]

If you want hedge of breakup than yes tubes are the way to go. For clean, clean, clean I don't hear very big differences to tell you the truth.

...

I have an henriksen head (flat) and I am getting a Barb EQ soon. I would love to compare it with a blackface fender head trough the same cab and the same reverb pedal. That would be honest comparison.

I've owned Fender solid-state amps and Fender tube amps, and really the difference in clean tone can be pretty radical (on both the plus and minus sides.) Like I said, it's not so much the tubes themselves as the design of everything else around them to make 'em work.

An even more honest comparison would be to hook up your Henriksen/BarbEQ to a Twin and compare that way

I searched for a "Twin-in-a-rack" for years and years and when I finally actually bought a Twin, I realized I'm really a Princeton man...

[mr. beaumont]

I don't see why we'd need to compare a tube and solid state clean sound. This isn't apples and oranges, it's apples and sheep--not even worth comparing--each has their own merits.

The thing that always gets me is when the tube guys compare their amps to a $50 SS practice amp and say "solid state sucks." Or whine that their Solid State amp doesn't get any "natural breakup."

[D.G.]

The thing that always gets me is when the tube guys compare their amps to a $50 SS practice amp and say "solid state sucks." Or whine that their Solid State amp doesn't get any "natural breakup."

Well yes, knowing what your tools are designed for is always good. And we compare tools to find which is the right one for the job at hand. So a comparison of a solid-state/modeling amp to a tube amp in the same application is perfectly valid.

[jorgemg1984]

I've owned Fender solid-state amps and Fender tube amps, and really the difference in clean tone can be pretty radical (on both the plus and minus sides.) Like I said, it's not so much the tubes themselves as the design of everything else around them to make 'em work.

An even more honest comparison would be to hook up your Henriksen/BarbEQ to a Twin and compare that way

I searched for a "Twin-in-a-rack" for years and years and when I finally actually bought a Twin, I realized I'm really a Princeton man...

I will post when I have the Barb EQ (early May).. if I am lucky I will have a real Fender to compare.

[jorgemg1984]

I don't see why we'd need to compare a tube and solid state clean sound. This isn't apples and oranges, it's apples and sheep--not even worth comparing--each has their own merits.

The thing that always gets me is when the tube guys compare their amps to a $50 SS practice amp and say "solid state sucks." Or whine that their Solid State amp doesn't get any "natural breakup."

Well Jeff you don't need to compare them but you can if you want I think that for a 100% clean sound, ss and tube amps, voiced in the same way, trough the same cab and speaker... should sound more similar than many think.

[docbop]

Well Jeff you don't need to compare them but you can if you want I think that for a 100% clean sound, ss and tube amps, voiced in the same way, trough the same cab and speaker... should sound more similar than many think.

If they sounded the same tubes would of been history a long time ago. Their components have different harmonic structure (probably not the right term, but you know what I mean) and the amps have different characteristics when driven. Modelers come close and will keep improving and maybe tubes will fade away one day.

I mainly use SS amps, but still have one tube amp for old times sake. But getting older and wanting lighter weight amp, then where I live power bills are skyrocketing are reasons I mainly use SS.

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

If they sounded the same tubes would of been history a long time ago.

Because our perception of things is never affected by suggestion, right?

Their components have different harmonic structure (probably not the right term, but you know what I mean) and the amps have different characteristics when driven. Modelers come close and will keep improving and maybe tubes will fade away one day.

And total harmonic distortion at a given power level may fall below human perception thresholds, which themselves are dependent (impaired) upon many factors.

jorgemg1984 is not arguing that hollow-state and solid-state amplifiers do not sound different when "driven" -- he is talking about the clean, linear operation of an amplifier.

[docbop]

Because our perception of things is never affected by suggestion, right?



And total harmonic distortion at a given power level may fall below human perception thresholds, which themselves are dependent (impaired) upon many factors.

jorgemg1984 is not arguing that hollow-state and solid-state amplifiers do not sound different when "driven" -- he is talking about the clean, linear operation of an amplifier.

I'm talking about clean sound too. How values and SS components respond to signal is different.

[Jim Soloway]

.

jorgemg1984 is not arguing that hollow-state and solid-state amplifiers do not sound different when "driven" -- he is talking about the clean, linear operation of an amplifier.

I would argue that clean there is also a very big difference, especially in the dynamic response at input stage. I believe that's the "feel" part that so many people comment on. It's also one of the reasons why I like modeling. It response much more like a tube amp at the input stage and for me that makes dynamics much easier to control.

[mr. beaumont]

Jim, you know way more about this stuff than I do, but I have no easier time controlling dynamics on my tube amp than on any of my solid state amps...

I always attribute "guitarist" words describing amps or tone in general ("responsive," "warm, " "buttery" etc.) to just mean "I like the way this sounds." To me, the amp puts out what you put into it dynamically or the amp is crap or malfunctioning and you move on.

[Jim Soloway]

Jim, you know way more about this stuff than I do, but I have no easier time controlling dynamics on my tube amp than on any of my solid state amps...

I always attribute "guitarist" words describing amps or tone in general ("responsive," "warm, " "buttery" etc.) to just mean "I like the way this sounds." To me, the amp puts out what you put into it dynamically or the amp is crap or malfunctioning and you move on.

What you're describing sounds much more like a PA or an acoustic amp than an electric guitar amp to me (and I believe there is a big difference). Terms like "warm" and even more terms like "buttery" are not terms that I put much stock in, but terms like "responsive" are very different and those I take very seriously.

I was going to leave it at that but here's something for you to consider. Many people have asked me for copies of my patches that I use on my Pod. I've posted most of them and they've been downloaded hundreds of times. You've heard me play through these patches. What I get out of them are my usual squeaky clean tones and yet the general consensus is that being played by most players, these patches are hot enough to easily be driven into the point where they breakup. that is an example of amp responding to the attack of the player. It's incumbent upon me to control my dynamics to the point where I can maintain clarity without driving the rig into distortion but by digging in a little harder, I can alter the tone so that it has a bit more grit and high end presence. I can't do that with a an Acoustic Image and I was unable to do that with a Quilter.

[mr. beaumont]

I agree with that, but I also view distortion as a malfunction...a "side effect," an unwanted one in my opinion. If responsiveness means that then it's a useless term for me...but I get how others use it...but not how it makes an amp "good." To me, it sounds like it makes an amp less useable.

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

I'm talking about clean sound too. How values and SS components respond to signal is different.

OK. How do they "respond" differently and when do these differences matter and when do they not? Differences as measured by our tools do not always equate to differences as heard by our ears.

I would argue that clean there is also a very big difference, especially in the dynamic response at input stage. I believe that's the "feel" part that so many people comment on. It's also one of the reasons why I like modeling. It response much more like a tube amp at the input stage and for me that makes dynamics much easier to control.

Can you clarify what you mean by "dynamic response at the input stage"?

What other difference(s) do you note and have you formed these observations between hollow-state and solid-state amplifiers that acutely minimize design factor differentia?

[Jim Soloway]

OK. How do they "respond" differently and when do these differences matter and when do they not? Differences as measured by our tools do not always equate to differences as heard by our ears.



Can you clarify what you mean by "dynamic response at the input stage"?

What other difference(s) do you note and have you formed these observations between hollow-state and solid-state amplifiers that acutely minimize design factor differentia?

I'm not familiar with the term "hollow-state" but as for your question about "dynamic response at the input stage" take a look at my response to Jeff just above. With most tube amps, as you increase the intensity of the attack, the fundamental tone changes, eventually leading to clipping and distortion. This is well emulated by a properly programmed modeler but not by most solid state amps, especially those which are market as either acoustic amps or jazz amps.

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

(Sorry, by "hollow-state" I mean tubes/valves. In solid-state, current is confined in solid materials. In tubes/valves, current flows through a vacuum so, accordingly, it is "hollow-state.")

OK, but "grit" is not clean, linear operation. In fact, if the amplifier is operating such that the threshold of conscious-audible distortion can be crossed by picking force, the amplifier is probably already producing significant unconscious-audible* distortion. This is not, however, an ineluctable property of tube amplification.

This particular discussion is only concerned with the differences between hollow-state and solid-state as they appear (if they appear) in clean, linear operation.

* The listener may perceive a change in sound, but not identify it as "distortion"

[HighSpeedSpoon]

You also have the small powered PA speakers with class D amplifiers that are inexpensive.

Amen to that. I just got an Alto TS110A powered speaker - 600W @ 26 pounds for $199. Granted, these are not "tube watts", but the little MF is still pretty loud. More importantly to me, it is quiet and accurate. And the only reason I stumbled onto this little gem is that the Behringer Eurolive B210D was sold out everywhere - another class D powered speaker with outstanding reviews at both Amazon and Musician's Friend. Plus Flyin' Brian mentioned the Quilter, and I believe Patrick Quilter came to them via the QSC people, whose high priced and well regarded K series speakers are ... Class D.

To be both blunt and, I think, accurate, a lot of these changes need my generation to die out as a significant market force. As a group, we've grown more and more conservative and resistant to change as we've aged and we have driven the market for traditional tube amps and other retro gear. It will change eventually and I think the time is starting to get very close.

As for your generation, I resemble that remark, but I'm not sure we have to die out for changes to occur. I can see that people who have not grown up learning to play on tubes may not be as wedded to the touch sensitivity and breakup characteristics of tubes. But maybe instead of dying out, we only have to get older and more tired of lugging and maintaining heavy tube gear. We may not live to see the end of the debate, but we may live to see the end of the primacy of tubes in the guitar amp market. In any case, I myself will be interested to find out if we see more of the modular topology

guitar ==> lightweight modeler ==> right-sized Hi-Fi amp(s) ==> right-sized Hi-Fi speaker(s)


(where of course, the speaker(s) and amp(s) can be combined into one or more powered speaker units)

[jorgemg1984]

Well I am sort of limited in this discussion because the only thing I can bring to the table are my ears - I do not have enough electronics / audio knowledge to argue with most of you here.

In my personal case I always had trouble with amps / cabs / speakers. I was always lucky to find excellent tools on all the rest (guitars, picks, strings, pickups, pedals, etc..) but not with amps. I have tried tons of amps: most 80s ss amps, most currente "jazz amps", real blackface and silverface and RI Fenders, some boutique (Dr Z, Two Rock, etc..) before I settled with my current setup which I am thrilled with (finally):

Prior to my search I had the same bias you would see here a lot of the time: tube watts are louder than solid sate watts and tubes are warmer and more dynamic and solid state are fast and sort of sterile. My own biased experiences contradict both sentences if we are talking about CLEAN sound - say a Twin Reverb, which I was never able to get close to breakup and has a solid state rectifier.

In my opinion the main differences between solid state and tube amps come from different cabs, speakers, circuit's voicing than from the technology used. We tend to ignore this things and their relevance. When I got my jazzmaster ultrtalight I thought it sounded like a Polytone with a Fender vibe - then I realized it was voiced like a blackface fender. What gave my ears the "jazz amp" resemblance was the small cubic closed back cab with a more neutral speaker. The jazzmaster ultralight trough my DR Z 2x12 cab in open back mode sounds as loud as a Twin and really close in terms of sound... the reverb being the main difference (and the Tornados should also be quite different from the usual suspects on a Twin).

Jack Zucker has also written on the subject here and on TGP... He had a Showman Reverb tube pre and he said the Barb EQ got him 90% close. He stated several times his Barb EQ trough the Henriksen with a Wet Reverb got him really happy when he wanted a Fender sound.

How many of you would have said solid state amp in this clip? Well it is...

[barrymclark]

My two cents on the tube v. ss v. modeller thing is this:

As interesting as I find the technology, be it old or new, I really and truly don't care how the amp does what it does so long as it does something I find pleasing.

I don't even look to an amp being tube for classic tube stuff nor an SS for classic SS stuff. Reason being is there is gold and garbage from all types of amp tech.

While certain things like responsiveness can be quantified, the way they might please a user/listener can't.

My approach is now, just listen to the thing. If it sound good, then awesome. So long as it isn't stolen, who cares what it is.

That's me though.

I just spent too many thousands of dollars on amps just to find that my $300 amp does everything I could want. Some of that money was even spent after getting the Cube in some strange attempt at proving the detractors right. I wasn't successful there. I'd get an amp, and ignore it after the honeymoon with the $300 amp still going.

[pingu]

Amen to that. I just got an Alto TS110A powered speaker - 600W @ 26 pounds for $199. Granted, these are not "tube watts", but the little MF is still pretty loud. More importantly to me, it is quiet and accurate.

can you plug a guitar straight into that or do you need a DI box or something to match the impedance
it doesn't give the input impedance on their site

[HighSpeedSpoon]

can you plug a guitar straight into that or do you need a DI box or something to match the impedance
it doesn't give the input impedance on their site

A DI box will help, but I was surprised at how well the connection worked without one. I played two humbucker guitars both ways. They worked "fine enough" straight in but the response was clearer via a DI box. And "fine enough" for me may not be fine enough for you if you are playing an acoustic or doing vocals. You will lose some definition and especially trebles if you go straight in. If it matters, good DI boxes are not that expensive. As I write this, the top-selling DI box on Amazon gets 4.5 out of 5 stars based on 44 ratings and costs less than $15, and even good passive ones can be had for around $30 (see here). BTW, the Alto site could definitely be clearer, but fyi I eventually discovered the input impedance hiding in their downloadable spec sheet (15 KOhms).

Good luck.

[Silentwiz]

Jim are you using that carvin bass combo without any effects? As a standalone unit, it'd make an incredible grab and go. A review would be appreciated.