Gibson 1968 Wes Montgomery L5

[daveg]

I hope this is the right place to post this?

I thought that some of you would like to see this. Hank Wickham was given this L5 as a 16th birthday present back in 1968 and is still using it today.

DG

[daveg]

Wes had his guitars Custom Built by Gibson and delivered as you see this one.

i.e. the pu's on both of his Custom Models were factory installed.

Maybe I can get some more info from Hank but at this stage I am assuming that it is a factory original.

I have also just noted that Hank has turned the pu around as Wes experimented with his back in '65. However, evidence suggests that Wes reverted to the more traditional approach - Hank has changed his and continued to use it that way. (Or was it delivered that way).

DG

[hot ford coupe]

Oh man, I wish I was lucky enough to get something like that for my 16th birthday.

[floatingpickup]

Wes had his guitars Custom Built by Gibson and delivered as you see this one.

i.e. the pu's on both of his Custom Models were factory installed.

Maybe I can get some more info from Hank but at this stage I am assuming that it is a factory original.

I have also just noted that Hank has turned the pu around as Wes experimented with his back in '65. However, evidence suggests that Wes reverted to the more traditional approach - Hank has changed his and continued to use it that way. (Or was it delivered that way).

DG

When Gibson restored Wes's "Heart" guitar in 1998, they said it began life as an L5C and was later modified to add the built-in humbucker. I am pretty sure that the heart guitar was the first single pickup L5 that Wes had. There was definitely another one that had his name inlayed in the area of the cutaway. That second one may have been custom built with a single pickup, but according to Gibson the heart guitar was not.

[oldane]

Oh man, I wish I was lucky enough to get something like that for my 16th birthday.

+1.

When I was 16 (in 1968) I had a beat up Hofner 457 which was considered a low end guitar back then - and I paid for it myself. But I had a compilation Wes record with a beautiful cover photo of him sitting, thoughtfully smoking, with the L5 on his lap. I showed that photo to everyone who cared to look and said "Man, that's a guitar I'd like to own".

[daveg]

Hi Keith,

I'm aware of the article, but in spite of what they said, they could have picked an L5c up off the production line and added the pu in the Gibson Custom shop?

Plus, they were making single pu L5s prior to Montgomery's request as evidenced by the photograph of Perry Lopez posing with one in an earlier (1960-61) Gibson catalogue.

There is also evidence in the Van Hoose and Ingram books on the L5 and S400's to suggest that the bracing on the L5c was not wide enough to accomodate the routing necessary for the pu and so had to be widened.

In 1965 there was no single pu option L5 in any of the catalogues so anything of this nature would have had to go through the Custom Shop.

Let's see what Hank has to say about his L5?

DG

[wintermoon]

I would think it was a custom order, but who knows? it may have been an L-5C retrofitted w/the pickup. the knobs are a bit earlier than '68, by that time Gibson had already switched to the black sombrero type. it does have the narrow nut width associated w/the time period.

[wintermoon]

good points Jabberwocky, but what the heck are those things above the tuners shafts? and I'm guessing the peghead veneer is that color due to the lighting/exposure?

[daveg]

Wintermoon,

I thought that at first but wouldn't the black of the Truss Rod Cover also be tinted?

DG

[daveg]

Jabberwocky,

The points that you make about the "Heart" guitar are certainly compelling evidence of a Custom job of some sort being carried out. The point on the end of the fingerboard and the finger-rest fastening are definitely different on the two instruments. Adrian Ingram, who researched Wes extensively for a number of books he has written on the subject says:

"Even though the two single pu L5CES' that Gibson gave to him in the early sixties were slightly different in design their modifications were minor and totally functional".

I wonder if the Indiana luthier just added the MOP? I was just a yard away from the "heart" guitar in 1965 and nothing stood out as being anything other than a Gibson factory job. If it was the Indiana luthier - I tip my hat to him; he did a great job!

[Patrick2]

Check out the orientation of the pup on the photo of Hank Wickham's guitar. Similar to Wes'. . . installed backwards.

[daveg]

Hi Jabberwocky,

I just remembered something with regard to the other Custom Gtr.

Wes can be seen playing the Diamond Guitar in the "People In Jazz" video interview with Jim Rockwell from 1968.

The Audio of this appeared on the "Live at Jorgies - and More" LP.

DG

[daveg]

Hi Jabberwocky,

I can't fault that!!

Not too many were made with the "Heart" inlay - you must be very proud of that! I played this one:

Gibson Wes Montgomery L5 Custom (It's long gone by the way). Very nice player!!

In talking about these guitars another point has occured to me. Maybe it is too difficult to tell from the pics but the placement of the Volume and Tone controls look very precise and consistent on all four guitars. As though the same (Gibson) "pattern" was used in each case. You might reasonably expect that if the Indiana luthier did the customisation there might be small but noticeable discrepancies between them?

DG

[floatingpickup]

I have always heard them called "Witches' Hats" but I really do prefer "black sombrero".

According to lore, there is another one that Wes Montgomery had inlaid with a MOP diamond but the heart inlay is the one most associated with him. Apparently, Wes had a luthier in Indiana rout out an L-5C for the humbucker; the X-brace got in the way so the pup was placed very close to the fingerboard end. Wes had the pickup reversed in the belief that it restored the "original" tone of the pup. (In the upright position, the poles would now be too close to the fretboard. Reversing the pup placed them farther away from the fretboard end, just like in an original humbucker in the L-5CES.) In the picture at the bottom of the article referenced by Keith, one could almost see that the Cupid's Bow/Caret/Bird's Beak has been nearly shaved off to accommodate the pickup and that the top edge of the mounting ring is right under the fretboard extension.

Jabberwocky:
Although I have also heard that single pickup L5's were custom made on occasion, I am not convinced that Wes's first one was originally that way. We may never know the whole story, but I tend to think Wes's '63 (the heart guitar) was probably originally fitted with a Johnny Smith p/u and later modified by Gibson (or someone else), as the article has suggested. I say that because there is no other reasonable explanation for the screw holes on the side of the neck that were mentioned in the article. Also, the pickup placed tightly against the neck is not typical for an L5 and looks like it could be an aftermarket installation, possibly related to the location of the braces as you have heard (BTW, you mentioned X-bracing, which I think is incorrect - I believe L5C's of that era were typically parallel braced, but different spacing than the CES versions. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that). Another reason for my opinion, is that I own a '63 L5C with a Johnny Smith p/u and mine has the same "shaved off" point on the end of the fingerboard as Wes's. I bought mine from the original owner and he told me it always had the JS on it (I can't be sure if it was made that way or if he had Gibson install the pickup before delivery). Interestingly, the fingerboard end on mine is exactly the same as Wes's '63, which is consistent with the story that his was originally fitted with a JS too.

[2bornot2bop]

This isn't mine but it looks like that:Attachment 5805

Gorgeous L5. Congrats!!! I'd love to own an L5!

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=2bornot2bop;293208]Gorgeous L5. Congrats!!!

I'd love to own an L5!

Greg . . . been thinking about selling my L5 Wes and my 17" Unity American Classic. (thinking about it. . not definite)

[2bornot2bop]

[QUOTE=Patrick2;293213]

Gorgeous L5. Congrats!!!



Greg . . . been thinking about selling my L5 Wes and my 17" Unity American Classic. (thinking about it. . not definite)

first the HDA and now the L5? What's the world coming to???

so is that to say you could be motivated to sell? I'd love to own one, but I went all in with the upgrades on the SKB and I'd have to sell it for $4k to break even. I don't see that happening so at this point my L5 dreams will have to wait for the SKB's never leavin.

[floatingpickup]

Hi Keith,

Both yourself and Jabberwocky seemed to be quoting from the article on my web site so I thought that I'd better go back and read it!! It has been a long time since I put that up and I had forgotten half of what was there!

Anyway, as you say, we might never know and speculation will never replace hard and fast recollections by someone who was there at the time.

I'm trying to contact Hank about the one pictured here and when I do I will try to persuade him to participate.

DG

DaveG:

So, you are the author of that interesting article! Then, maybe you can comment on one small thing that doesn't quite add up. The quote from Carl Hansen says:

"This instrument was born an L-5C, an acoustic, tone-bar braced jazz axe, and, as indicated by the two tiny holes remaining in the bottom bass side of the end of the fingerboard we surmise that it was originally equipped with a Johnny Smith pickup, now long gone. We do not know in which year Mr. Montgomery had this converted to its present configuration of a built-in single hum-bucking pickup located just under the carat at the end of the fingerboard."

My question is: If it originally had a JS pickup, there would be two holes on both sides of the the fingerboard (four holes in total). If there are only two holes on the bass side, that suggests it may have had a De'Armond p/u, which would definitely not be a factory installation. Maybe this was a minor error in Mr. Hansen's letter or maybe he doesn't realize that a JS pickup attaches with four screws. If someone took the time to count and measure the holes carefully to see which type of pickup they line up with, this mystery could be solved. I wish I could take a close look at the guitar and figure this out. It might shed some light on how Wes settled on the single p/u configuration that is so closely associated with him.

Any thoughts?

Keith

[wintermoon]

In Ingram's Wes Montgomery book there's pics of him @ Ronnie Scott's playing an L-5C w/ a Dearmond, IIRC.
Is that the guitar in question, or was it a borrowed guitar? I believe Dave was present @ the club that week

[floatingpickup]

In Ingram's Wes Montgomery book there's pics of him @ Ronnie Scott's playing an L-5C w/ a Dearmond, IIRC.
Is that the guitar in question, or was it a borrowed guitar? I believe Dave was present @ the club that week

Wow, This may be the answer to the mystery! Dave???
Keith

[Jimmy Mack]

First thing I noticed in the OP's first picture, was the ornaments at the string post tops. Whaaaaaat the .............

They look like lamp parts. Brass beads. Are they functioning in some fashion???? Seem to be held in place by the string ends or what resemble paper clips! Wouldn't they rattle? Go figure!

I have turned the neck p/up around on my L5 CES. Have mentioned it on this board a couple of times. It gives me a brighter tone, something I was looking for, like Danny Caron's tone. The earlier (60's) Gibson H/bers were said to sound closer to P90's
(according to some), and I agree that they did have a sweeter tone. So, chasing that era for tone (including Wes's), I will be keeping the p/up that way.

A couple of years ago, Mandolin Bros. in Staten Island was selling the WM "Heart" guitar. It had to be refurbished extensively after being in a fire. I really want to know who bought it, and where it is now?

[rpguitar]

I am pretty sure that George Benson, then Pat Metheny (in that order) purchased the famous Wes L-5.

George Benson: Still the Coolest of Cats - Premier Guitar (near the bottom of page 1)

[floatingpickup]

I am pretty sure that George Benson, then Pat Metheny (in that order) purchased the famous Wes L-5.

George Benson: Still the Coolest of Cats - Premier Guitar (near the bottom of page 1)

I dont think the guitar that George Benson sold by auction was the heart guitar. The Skinners listing for the George Benson collection had a two pickup sharp cut L5. Here is the listing:


https://secure.skinnerinc.com/asp/fu...refno=++718311

Also, regarding Wintermoon's posting...I don't have the Adrian Ingram book, but I have looked at numerous pictures, youtube videos, etc. from Wes's tour to Europe in 1965 and every picture shows the heart guitar with the built in humbucker. I wonder if you saw a picture of Wes playing a guitar at an earlier time. I recall a story about Wes borrowing a guitar from Kenny Burrell when he recorded the Incredible Jazz Guitar sessions in 1960. I can't find a good picture from those sessions, but if I remember correctly, it seems to me the guitar was an L7 with a De'Armond. Could at be the pic you saw?

Keith

[jazzkenny]

I dont think the guitar that George Benson sold by auction was the heart guitar. The Skinners listing for the George Benson collection had a two pickup sharp cut L5. Here is the listing:


https://secure.skinnerinc.com/asp/fu...refno=++718311

Also, regarding Wintermoon's posting...I don't have the Adrian Ingram book, but I have looked at numerous pictures, youtube videos, etc. from Wes's tour to Europe in 1965 and every picture shows the heart guitar with the built in humbucker. I wonder if you saw a picture of Wes playing a guitar at an earlier time. I recall a story about Wes borrowing a guitar from Kenny Burrell when he recorded the Incredible Jazz Guitar sessions in 1960. I can't find a good picture from those sessions, but if I remember correctly, it seems to me the guitar was an L7 with a De'Armond. Could at be the pic you saw?

Keith

I believe it was an L-7C with a "Charlie Christian" bar pickup.

[wintermoon]

Hi guys,
No, I'm certain it was an L-5C w/ a Dearmond w/the red insert. I just got home and checked the book, there's 3 pics of Wes w/that guitar including one of him w/Cedric West playing his Gretsch White Falcon @ the club. I'm sure Dave will chime in here...