-
Hi guys ! I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit this, but after playing an L-5 for some 30 years, I discovered a very disappointing build problem that I can only chalk up to just not believing there could be anything wrong with an L-5.
A good friend offered to "freshen" her up for me (new strings, bridge and neck adjustments,oil the fretboard,etc.) and I jumped at the opportunity.
At some point during the cleaning, he removed the tailpiece, only to discover it was mounted off center,thus causing the strings to be skewed on the fretboard - even the bridge is slightly off center !
It's a '75 or '76 - yes, Norlin Era.......Should I have it redone,and who would you recommend? I'm located in the Pittsburgh,Pa. area.
Sorry I can't send pics - tailpiece is probably 1/8" + off center. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Chip
-
11-26-2012 01:08 PM
-
Try putting the bridge where it is supposed to be and string the guitar up to pitch. The tailpiece being 1/8" off center should not affect where the strings lie on the fretboard, unless the tailpiece is pulling the floating bridge over from where it should be. I would think that 1/8" off center would not do that unless you have a very slippery bridge.
-
This is a relatively simple repair . . it's also more common than most people believe it to be in production type guitars. Obviously, the repair will be visible if new screw holes need to be drilled. But, you first need to make sure that the "break" or the bend in the tail piece is not the problem.
Originally Posted by Chip
Pittsburgh isn't so far away from Kalamazoo MI . . (in my mind anyway). There is a guy in Vicksburg MI who worked for Gibson for over 20 years during the era of your L5's birth. His name is Aaron Cowles. He has built many of the L5, Super 400 and Citation guitars at the Gibson plant. It would be very advisable for you to at least call Aaron and discuss your guitar with him. He's very approachable and he loves to talk about the guitars and the company Gibson, during the time when he was there.
He's not usually in on Mondays . . but, here's his tele # 269-649-3929.
Here's his web site . . www.aaronsmusicservice.com
Tell him I said hello.
Last edited by Patrick2; 11-26-2012 at 06:05 PM.
-
a relatively common problem w/Gibsons, especially from the 70's on up to today's guitars.
the first L-5 I bought years ago had this issue as well as a current Super 400 I own.
the mounting holes are drilled very close to the edges of the tailpiece base so it's likely @ least one or two of the old holes will show if you redrill in the correct spot.
an easier non-invasive solution is to cut a business card to the shape of the side edge of the t.p. base and insert it between the t.p. and the butt end of the guitar [on ONE side of the t.p. only] this will 'line up' the t.p. better and doesn't affect the sound. you may have to fold the card in half depending on how severe it's out of alignment.
it amazes my how Gibson puts so much work into a hand made guitar and then can't consistently line up the t.p.... which is probably the easiest step in building the entire instrument.Last edited by wintermoon; 11-26-2012 at 01:53 PM.
-
Thanks to everyone for their help. Patrick - I will give Aaron a call and send along your salutations.....Thanks again,
Chip
P.S. I find it amazing that this is a "common" problem. Only wish I had caught it earlier in my career !!!!!!
-
Chip, you went 30 years playing your L-5CES without noticing the "problem". Maybe the "problem" isn't so real after all. It gives your L-5CES character and possibly it may have its own charm. Correcting the tailpiece alignment may change its old familiar feel. Or it may make it play better. But after 30 years of playing it, does it matter?
My opinion is to leave well enough alone.
And then they boast about a PLEK machine to dress the frets better. Originally Posted by wintermoon
-
I had a '45 L-5 for a few years and the bridge wouldn't sit in the center of the body. If you put it in the center, it would slowly creep back to a point about 1/4 - 1/2" off. A little debug revealed that a factory neck reset done in the early 60's hadn't been done perfectly, and the neck wasn't perpendicular to the body!
You know, it was a great guitar, but once I knew all that it kind of made me crazy. It's been replaced with a '46 (avatar). Hope yours turns out as simple as the above supposes.
But all of that hasn't affected my love of L-5's!
-
It's a dead-easy fix for a qualified repairperson.
It's also easy enough to determine if the correct position of the tailpiece (which involves moving it over and drilling new holes) will cover the existing holes (which can be filled whether visible or not).
I did this to a '98 L-5WES and there was plenty of room to cover the old, misaligned holes.
-
Geez, this is not comforting newz to some of us wannabe L5 owners...not good newz at all.
-
It's a dead easy fix . . as long as the problem is caused by an improperly installed tail piece . . and not an improperly formed/bent/angled tail piece. (I was unsure which of those three is the correct term for it Originally Posted by Hammertone
)
Also, gotta agree with jabber . . . if it didn't matter for the past 30+ years . . . then why now? Is it psychosomatic? Probably so . . because, I'm the same way. Sometimes, what you don't know . . doesn't hurt you.
-
Wow, guys,your input to this problem has been great ! Jabberwocky, I guess after having spent the money(2 weeks after our twins were born!), I couldn't bring myself to believe there was a problem. Now that I'm retired,and the kids are adults, the problem is raising its ugly head at me. I've been able to spend more time playing,and it just bothers me . Patrick - you're right - it is psychosomatic ! However, after some thought, I think I might try Wintermoon's business card trick first to see how it feels before I go for a re-do........................Thanks to all,
Chip
-
Well, don't lose too much sleep over it Greg. It happens . . and it's easily remedied. I delivered a Heritage Golden Eagle a while back. Same situation but with one of those finger type tail pieces. The floating bridge was positioned perfectly. As such, you could see the 6th string being pulled over to the left of the tail piece, so it would line up correctly on the finger board. It too was only about a slight 1/8th inch. We both (the dealer and I) felt it would cause the bridge base to creep. So, he made the correction while I was there chatting with him. Took no more than 15 minutes and was totally undetectable. He assured me that he was going to inform the customer . . full disclosure . . of the alteration, which did require drilling new holes. But, they were hidden under the tail piece flange. I called him a week later. He said he told the customer and offered to disassemble the guitar again to show him the old and filled in holes (he didn't even bother the touch them up with a dab of NCL). He said the customer played the guitar and said . . . it's fine no prob. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
It's one of those myriad problems that sometime occur in a production type of operation . . . that almost never occur in the boutique, one man operation luthier shops. The guy/gal who is responsible for lining up and drilling the holes for a tail piece . . . especially in a higher volume plant like Gibson . . sometime goes through a transition, from learning . . to competency . . to perfection . . to boredom. Then they need to reel it back in. The tail piece fitting is probably one of only a very few procedures done at that particular station. Repeatedly . . . again and again and again. ANY mere mortal can let the boredom of a repetitve task cause them to lose focus.
Whereas, a small, one man shop luthier, will not put the guitar on his work bench until it is absolutely ready to be fitted with the tail piece . . . and even then, he's in no real big hurry to get it done. It's one detail of the thousands of details necessary to complete a crafted instrument. Absolutely no opportunity for loss of focus due to boredom.
In a production type of operation, it happens . . . and I've got no real problem with it. However, with that being said . . there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for such a mistake to EVER slip by quality control and be shipped out without being corrected!! But, if/when it does slip out the door . . no need to cut your wrists over it. Just have your dealer fix it . . or return it to the manufacturer to be fixed.
-
Well, if you're already having to acquire an L5 used because that's the only way to fit one into your budget a dealer fix is not an option. The thought of spending $5800 for a used archtop that could potentially need work to set it right is...well, unsettling. Originally Posted by Patrick2
-
But . . . that pre-assumes . . (sounds so much nicer than "presumes") that every L5 out there has an incorrectly fitted tail piece. It's probably more like 1/10th of 1% of them that do. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Well, if you're already having to acquire an L5 used because that's the only way to fit one into your budget a dealer fix is not an option. The thought of spending $5800 for a used archtop that could potentially need work to set it right is...well, unsettling.
If you're chasing absolute perfection . . .you ain't gonna get there with $5,800 and Gibson logo on the head stock.
-
I discovered the exact same thing on an L-5 'copy' I own. The strings were not right dead-center over the pickup pole pieces but it was so minor that I didn't really pay it any mind for the first 3 years. And the high E string was just a tad close to the edge of the fretboard but I didn't give it much thought. I ended up shifting the tail piece over a tad and drilling new holes. Now everything lines up perfectly. I've since seen this slight misalignment on other guitars too.
-
well, we did preface that statement with "potentially." Is that an educated guess on the percentage or have you taken a poll? Originally Posted by Patrick2
your points about how something like this could occur were acceptable, but seems to me a large corporation like gibson certainly has the capacity to ensure L5's are done right...what it says about the company is, we're in a rush to make a buck on a high dollar item more than we're interested in seeing an expensive archtop is done right...just my perception and opinion...and nothing against Gibson owners.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-27-2012 at 02:22 PM.
-
No poll at all man. I've personally played and inspected each and every one of them!! (wow . . would that be a gas???) Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
well, we did preface that statement with "potentially." Is that an educated guess on the percentage or have you taken a poll?
your points about how something like this could occur were acceptable, but seems to me a large corporation like gibson certainly has the capacity to ensure L5's are done right
They have the capacity, the skilled craftsmen (and women) and more than enough time to do it right. However, there is also the human element that I pointed out in my earlier post.
Sorry man .. you don't get to pin this one on Gibson, the company . . and its corporate culture driven by the greed of its owners. That's just too broad of a brush stroke. Gibson has skilled people making these higher end arch tops. They're well paid (subjective) to do the work. Gibson also has a QC department. I realize that a company is its people, in many regards. But, if anyone thinks that Henry J. or his division leaders/managers are riding rough shod over the crafts*people* at the Custom Shop . . to pump out the numbers and just totally disregard quality . . I think that's a totally out to lunch perception. When you're making widgets in an assembly line type fo setting, shit happens . . even one as small as Gibson's Custom Shop . . or even smaller, such as Heritage's Custom Shop . . the guitar moves from work station to work station to work station. Shit happens . . and is sometimes over looked. It also sometimes makes it past QC inspections. It souldn't . . but, it does. That's why the products carry a warranty....what it says about the company is, we're in a rush to make a buck on a high dollar item more than we're interested in seeing an expensive archtop is done right
However, with that said . . the responsibility for all departments to function within set standards . . and the onus if they do not . . falls squarely on management, to recognize and correct the inadequacies. But, I highly doubt that Gibson's management are intentionally sacrificing quality and thereby image and reputation . . for the sake of making a buck.
Heh heh . . . better not be "nothing against Gibson owners". You're gonna soon be one. That oh so right Wes is out there waiting for you. You know that's what you want . . . I know that's what you want. You just need to find the right one. But, before you know it . . it'll probably find you!! Stay on the hunt!!!...just my perception and opinion...and nothing against Gibson owners.
-
You drive a hard bargain brother! Originally Posted by Patrick2
Nope, I've come to my senses. I'm done chasing rainbows of the unknown and have decided to settle on one that I know works.
The MC Special acquisition went down the drain when the seller decided not to honor a return on the archtop.
Ms. Black Tie Affair is enroute to a recently enrolled jazz studies student in TN, how kewl is that!...Since I love the neck, the tone, and big bodies, I pestered the good Dr. to reacquire Ms. Tobacco Road.
She's at Aaron's as we speak getting a full treatment complete with a new KA handwound 12 pole pickup and having the bridge properly fitted...fig'd if she's going to be my keeper I may as well start treating her "special", pun intended.
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-27-2012 at 08:31 PM.
-
Greg . . . had a long conversation with Mark today. He told me about the SKB coming back to you. Mark is a true gentleman. He and I share the same policy . . as it relates to selling guitars back to the person we buy them from. Unless we really fall in love with a guitar, we'll let a seller buy it back, at no mark up, if they have seller's remorse within a year's time. Mark told me he really liked the SKB .. but, it was obvious to him that you loved it more.
Just a suggestion .. . as long as Aaron already has the guitar, you may want to get that saddle off of that bridge base and have Aaron make you one that is truly compensating. Those saddles that Heritage was using back then are not compensated low E to high E. They're just scooped out in the middle . . . as your photo clearly shows. Aaron just made me one for The Rose. He doesn't charge too much at all and he has some beautiful ebony right now.
Oh . . . by the way . . . there is definitely a Wes in your future. You're gonna be horny for one until you get it . . and you know it.
-
Thanks 4 the suggestion. Actually I'd already placed an order for that African Blackwood bridge you shared last week. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Archtop guitar bridges.
but since the archtop is at Aaron's it wouldn't hurt to cover all the bases and have one of each!
-
Is the cause of the problem really a tailpiece alignment?
Often the alignment of the pickups is made more sloppy than the alignment of the tailpiece.
If the alignment of the tailpiece is reset according to the pickup having a misalignment, the tension of the string acts obliquely to the neck.
and guitar will be "Inclined head"
take care.
-
I would imagine after 4 1/2 years the OP probably has either had it fixed or moved on to another guitar.
-
Going for the resurrected thread award? Hey anybody else troubled by those pesky Visigoths? I was just reading some historical records and the Romans were more than a little concerned.
Heh heh. Lots of solutions to the OP's original problem. All of them made relatively moot by aligning a bridge to the fingerboard and playing your heart out.
David
-
Thanks for the tip. Was just cruising his site and saw this awesome thing: Originally Posted by Patrick2
There is a guy in Vicksburg MI who worked for Gibson for over 20 years during the era of your L5's birth. His name is Aaron Cowles. He has built many of the L5, Super 400 and Citation guitars at the Gibson plant. It would be very advisable for you to at least call Aaron and discuss your guitar with him. He's very approachable and he loves to talk about the guitars and the company Gibson, during the time when he was there.
He's not usually in on Mondays . . but, here's his tele # 269-649-3929.
Here's his web site . . www.aaronsmusicservice.com
Tell him I said hello.
-
I think Patrick can say hello to Aaron directly these days.
Those of us still on Earth may have a more difficult time getting ahold of him.
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Today, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions