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I don't think that DC resistance is a good guage for judging a how a pickup will sound. Unless you knwo exactly what components are used in it's construction the DC could be deceptive.
Consider:
The wire used to wind the coils comes in varying thicknesses and resistance per foot. Thickness is directly proportional to the DC resistance per foot. The thicker the wire, the lower the resistance (easier to flow). There is an allowable variance in resistance per foot for any given gauge of wire. For instance, #42 plain enamel wire has a tolerance of ~1.600 ohms/foot to ~1.900 ohms per foot. If two identical humbuckers are wound with each of these wires with 5000 turns of wire on each bobbin, the pickup wound with 1.600 resistance will read about 8K ohms. The pickup wound with 1.900 wire will read about 8.8K ohms. That may appear to be a very significant difference, but the pickups will sound nearly identical. In reality, the pickup that reads 8.8K actually has a 10% lower true output than the 8K pickup for the following reason; Current produced by both pickups will be the same, since they have the same number of turns and the same magnet strength, but the 8.8K pickup has more resistance to current flow so it's final signal output will be lower.
Not to mention, go listen to an early Wes Montgomery recording and a later one. The early ones he was playing p90 and PAF loaded 175s, the later recordings were Pat# and early T-top loaded L5s. They all sound great. I believe a lot of tone comes from your hands and the way you play, more so than a pick up.
I have a mid 70s L5 with stock pickups (some would argue some of the worst Gibson made) and they sound lovely, equally as good as the Sheptone I have in my ES-165.
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11-28-2012 08:13 PM
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I think the situation about "data" is pretty clear now.
Chris
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Data?? Wasn't that the android dude on Star Trek, Generations??? He was way cool!!!! But, really . . . 7 of 9 was HOT!!! "Resistance is futile"
Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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Man how a thread can go... and it even started with very civilized disagreements. It's just pickups, there are much more important things to care about right?
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Sorry Jorge for any misfortune I may have caused here.
As best I can tell it was a reasonably friendly attempt to see how we came to certain views on the PU's. It seems that they were far more personal, and personally important, views than I thought.
Maybe it's time for me to drop off for a while. As you sort of vaguely suggest, maybe it is more fun to lay out person interpretation and leave it at that.
I can understand how someone apparently gets very invested in their personal views and that this is incompatible with discussion.
In my opinion - or more accurately, my interpretation.
All the best,
Chris
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[quote=reedy;273576]I don't think that DC resistance is a good guage for judging a how a pickup will sound. Unless you knwo exactly what components are used in it's construction the DC could be deceptive.
Consider:
The wire used to wind the coils comes in varying thicknesses and resistance per foot. Thickness is directly proportional to the DC resistance per foot. The thicker the wire, the lower the resistance (easier to flow). There is an allowable variance in resistance per foot for any given gauge of wire. For instance, #42 plain enamel wire has a tolerance of ~1.600 ohms/foot to ~1.900 ohms per foot. If two identical humbuckers are wound with each of these wires with 5000 turns of wire on each bobbin, the pickup wound with 1.600 resistance will read about 8K ohms. The pickup wound with 1.900 wire will read about 8.8K ohms. That may appear to be a very significant difference, but the pickups will sound nearly identical. In reality, the pickup that reads 8.8K actually has a 10% lower true output than the 8K pickup for the following reason; Current produced by both pickups will be the same, since they have the same number of turns and the same magnet strength, but the 8.8K pickup has more resistance to current flow so it's final signal output will be lower.
Not to mention, go listen to an early Wes Montgomery recording and a later one. The early ones he was playing p90 and PAF loaded 175s, the later recordings were Pat# and early T-top loaded L5s. They all sound great. I believe a lot of tone comes from your hands and the way you play, more so than a pick up.
I've mentioned here before . . My most recently aquired Golden Eagle, has a single inset pup . . neck position, obviously. It's a NOS 1970s Gibson T-Top, patent number engraved into the back . . (not a sticker) . . 7.2K gold cover. It sounds absolutely wonderful! Clear as a bell without being chimey. No muddyness on the bottom end. Pretty similar to my Seth loaded GEs . . . but, just a little more . . . . . subtle and a little more pronounced . . . all at the same time.I have a mid 70s L5 with stock pickups (some would argue some of the worst Gibson made) and they sound lovely, equally as good as the Sheptone I have in my ES-165.
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I originally asked the question about replacing pickups in a '50s 175 and about the Seth versus the Antiquities. In hindsight, looks like I inadvertently hijacked the thread and caused two fine dudes to quit. Sorry 'bout that. It's ironic, though, that the purchase of the '50s 175 fell through so there's no need for me to replace any PAFs at the moment. Go figure!!
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Originally Posted by reedy
Naaa . . . no worries man. We get all worked up. We get pissed. Then, we cool down and come back for more. It's all good. Nobody's quitting . . . . . least of all PTChristopher. He's a glutton for punishment. We're all just big babies . . . like most other men in the world. Don't believe me?? Just ask any woman. Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
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LOL. I just did. She confirmed what you said. She did ask, though, what you all thought of newer Gibson P-90s ...
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HA! Sounds like a smart lady. Which begs the question . . . what the hell is she doing hooked up with a jazz guitarist?? Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
I've got a 2009 R4 and a 2009 R6. The P 90 pups in each are great. Not nearly as much hum as the older ones . . . but all the same good tone.
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I noticed that some PU makers (Bareknuckle, DiMarzio and probably others) show a kind of frequency spectrum for each PU they sell.
Three vertical bars giving the relative amount of bass, middle and highs the PU produces.
For example the BareKnuckle Stormy Monday has a depressed middle bar.
This will give less midrange frequencies and so it will be a brighter pickup and you will hear more string separation.. (see the description on his website). This was typical of the early '57, '58 PAFs.
Another pickup that, I guess, has similar characteristics, although there is no frequency spectrum on his website, is the Lollar Low Wind.
I have this PU in one of my guitars (Collings I35 LC) and I can hear that typical bright sound, great string definition, great clarity (well, that could also come from how the guitar itself was built, interesting reading here http://www.collingsguitars.com/Image..._tonequest.pdf )
It seems to me that the 57 Classics are not at all close to the above description, at least that is what my ears tell me.
They produce a more even (in terms of frequencies) "reassuring" sound.
I think the pickups that Gibson produces and that are supposed to be a close replica of the early PAFs are the Burstbucker 1. At least this is what I can read on Gibson's Website, in the PU section.
I played once an SG with BurstBucker 1 in the neck and I immediately noticed "that early bright sound", although the guitar was not an archtop.
I played also an SG with 57 Classics and I found instead great similarites with recent 335s that carry the 57s.
When I bought my Henriksen I brought with me my 2010 Es 175.
The owner of the music shop gave me a '61 Es 175 to play. I played his guitar and had almost the impressions the guitar had single coils when compared to mine.
Maybe tweaking knobs here and there as PTChris says will allow a specific PU to sound very similar to another one. In some cases I think a very good EQ can do the job.
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Ok, let's play "I show you mine you show me yours". Originally Posted by PTChristopher
You're very welcome to illustrate it with all the graphs and equations you see fit to include.
And being you the one that started with the 3rd degree, show you're in good faith and by all means, be my guest as display the data in your posession first.
I'll play along if you do. Promessed!
EDIT: just give me an example of the data you think is relevant in the format you'd like it to be presented and I'll try to comply.
Hoping in hearing form you soon,Last edited by LtKojak; 11-29-2012 at 07:16 AM.
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Chris my comments were not directed to you. We have both discussed this topic before and while we sort of disagree there was no need for being anger or bitter (and actually that was true to plenty of other topics). I think it's a good idea to keep things these way... I think some people take these things too seriously Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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Welcome back, Pepe... Originally Posted by LtKojak
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Good to be back! Originally Posted by Dad3353
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As my friendly neighbourhood pizza-man Mario sez, "Quando si mangia testicoli di toro per la prima colazione, non li scambiano per il coraggio." Originally Posted by LtKojak
Ok, let's play "I show you mine you show me yours".
You're very welcome to illustrate it with all the graphs and equations you see fit to include.
And being you the one that started with the 3rd degree, show you're in good faith and by all means, be my guest as display the data in your posession first.
I'll play along if you do. Promessed!
EDIT: just give me an example of the data you think is relevant in the format you'd like it to be presented and I'll try to comply.
Hoping in hearing form you soon,
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...I'm not sure I understand... Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Lol... remember that guy NiAg?? He NEVER CAME BACK!!!! Originally Posted by Patrick2
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I always suspected Mario was really Puerto Rican............ Originally Posted by Jazz_175
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I can't stand to see or hear something I love being used as a put down. Originally Posted by Patrick2
R E S P E C T
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Thank God you didn't get it either... maybe jabberwocky's friend IS puertorican after all... Originally Posted by Jazz_175
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I just spoke to Mario about his BS Italian and Mario said it was said to him by the man who taught him pizza-making; it is an ancient Sicilian saying: When you have bull's testicles for breakfast, do not mistake them for courage.
In other words, Don't Talk Tough and Don't Talk Big.
Mario IS Puerto Rican after all. That rascal.
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I would've preferred: Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
"You sure can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
For the record: in old times Spain, the "Matador" (a Torero that also kills the bull in the "Corrida") would eat the bull's testicles he killed as a way to assimilate the bull's courage. They were treated then like Rock stars in the '80s!Last edited by LtKojak; 11-30-2012 at 02:16 AM.
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Something like the tone in this clip? Originally Posted by Jazz_175
Set it to the highest resolution and hit play:
Stellar PAF tone, if you ask me.
It really is bright. Just like Seth Lover envisioned.
Not for the sloppy player...Last edited by LtKojak; 12-01-2012 at 05:19 AM.
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They are still treated liked that although in very small places. It's the same here in Portugal - although anti-tourada is growing a lot on both countries. Here usually they don't kill the bull, the exception being some small villages near the border. Originally Posted by LtKojak
I would've preferred:
"You sure can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?
For the record: in old times Spain, the "Matador" (a Torero that also kills the bull in the "Corrida") would eat the bull's testicles he killed as a way to assimilate the bull's courage. They were treated then like Rock stars in the '80s!
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