High-end laminate vs. Low-end laminate guitar?

[2bornot2bop]

[2Bop] >>> And isn't any archtop with a floater, preserving the tops integrity, still essentially an acoustic guitar?

In my opinion, not necessarily at all.

Sure some are. An Eastman or Benedetto or other very well made acoustic archtop with a floater is essentially an acoustic guitar with a magnetic pickup added.

But there are many, even most, floater-equipped guitars that have the floater as a fashion statement, vestige of some sort, or in many cases an arguably misguided choice that does not meet the expectation of many players.

How about an Ibanez Benson? Floaters. (EDIT: I mean the GB-10.) They sound fine. But a funny design choice considering the goal of the design. The PU's are dew claws that happen to do no harm in this case.

An Epi Emperor Regent. Very useful guitar, but how many would call it an acoustic?

Try those Korean D'Angelicos. The floater vs. the top-mounted HB. One appeals to some as a "look", but as a "listen"?

And how's about the floaters that people really love? They seem to be those that sound the most like a PAF.

Yeah, I guess the floater can preserve the acoustic integrity of a top. But when you go and screw a PU to a top up near the end of the FB, the effect of the sound is far less than one might expect on many (especially parallel braced) guitars.

It is funny how little area on an archtop really produces the acoustic sound.

Touch the felt pad behind a pickguard to the top and you can hear a difference. Lay a baloney sandwich (or a pickup) on other areas and it is very hard to tell if it is there.

I guess floaters are thought of as thin sounding. And the majority of players experiences with them may support this.

But there are also some exceptions. The KA 12-pole (usually followed by a small wave of love in a forum thread) sounds fuller than most. The Benedetto S6 also manages to avoid the tin can effect (too bad about the weak-ish B response,...)

Chris

Hmmm, I've owned 3 of the Korean D'A's, each with a floater. The one I own now has a stock floater, that was nothing really special until I did a fresh setup and installed TI GB14 flat's and lowered the action on her. To my surprise suddenly the guitar came alive and didn't perform like the previous guitar. It hardly sounds like your average anemic floater any more. No way jack, that Korean D'A is no Epiphone Regeant, no way Jose!

Is the guitar as expressive as my GE, no, but neither does it perform like the $800 guitar that it is either.



I've a Vestax NYL-2 that came with a Tom Short floater known as the Steve Bistrow Western Swing/Jazz floater...now there's a floater for anyone....or should I say for that guitar...that floater is the big leagues for sure...fat, warmth, responsive, every harmonic nuance any player would want.

Steve Bistrow called the 'short the "holy grail" of floating pups. It's far and away the best floater I've owned.

http://tomshortshandmadepickups.com/...z_floater.html

Tom Short's Guitar Pickups

http://www.harmonycentral.com/products/109528

[2bornot2bop]

Greg . . . selling this guitar was a very unsettling decision for me . . . and one that I still can't totally put my finger on. The guitar is an amazing example of design and flawlessly executed workmanship. It's acoustic tone is very different than that of any of my other arch tops . . and superior to all others except the Aaron Cowles built American Classics . . . especially the 18" . . . which is just in an entirely different league altogether.

The Guild Benedetto JS Award generated great volume, a big voice, very articulate across all 6 strings . . . but, with a gentle warmth that is characteristic of all Benedetto full size arch tops. I really do believe that the Engleman spruce top along with Benedetto's carve and bracing techniques made the tonal difference. Unfortunately, it just never quite seemed to fit in my collection. I never did bond with it. I took it to the Philly show expecting to generate some interest from show attendees, not dealers . . . because my asking price was pretty much near current retail selling price for that model. I was very surprised when Lee's counter offer to my asking price was still within reason. Here's a statement that will further define my mixed feelings . . . I wish I still had it . . . but, I don't regret selling it. WOW!! That doesn't even make sense to ME!!!!

Thanks for the story. It's nice having insights into a mind of one who owns one of the nicest archtop collections on the planet.

[2bornot2bop]

The routed PU to my ears has a more clean sound with less irregular overtones. I find it easier to control the tone of the routed PU with the tone controls. The floating PU often has a brighter and more harsh sound though there are exceptions. Please note, however, that this is my personal preference (ideosyncracy?) of sound based on the way I hear sounds. The reason I dislike floating PUs is very reason some other people like them. I figure it's a matter of how much you want your guitar to sound like an acoustic when amplified. Apart from this, floating PUs are often more prone to feed back even at lower volumes. And it's easier to adjust PU height with routed PUs - especially PUs in humbucker mount (and you can get almost any PU type in the convenient humbucker mount).

Yes, if it is made as an acoustic archtop in the first place. But then I didn't say it wasn't an acoustic - at least that was not what I meant. But as Chris has pointed out, some archtops with floating PUs are not that good as acoustic instruments, and they may just as well have had routed PUs. The example with the Ibanez GB-10 is a good one. I never understood why they made it with floating PUs since it's not an acoustic guitar at all. Some plywood boxes also have floating PUs for reasons I don't quite get.

Thanks for the further explanation. Before closing your mind to floaters sample this one...it may surprise you as it did me, for prior to it I was a routed man through and through...not any more.

Steve Bistrow Western Swing/ Jazz Floater

[Patrick2]

Thanks for the story. It's nice having insights into a mind of one who owns one of the nicest archtop collections on the planet.

Here's the listing for my (used to be mine) Guild Benedetto JS Award. The write up in the details section are very accurate. I would only question the part where he said his tech did a clean up, re string and set up on the guitar. NONE of my guitars need to be cleaned and/or set up. I've seen quite a few of the great guitars for sale recently. But, they've all been blond or sun burst. I've never seen one in Bob's signature color of oppulent brown.


2002 Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith Award Opulent Brown > Guitars : Electric Semi-Hollow Body - GrinningElk Music Company | Gbase.com

[2bornot2bop]

Here's the listing for my (used to be mine) Guild Benedetto JS Award. The write up in the details section are very accurate. I would only question the part where he said his tech did a clean up, re string and set up on the guitar. NONE of my guitars need to be cleaned and/or set up. I've seen quite a few of the great guitars for sale recently. But, they've all been blond or sun burst. I've never seen one in Bob's signature color of oppulent brown.


2002 Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith Award Opulent Brown > Guitars : Electric Semi-Hollow Body - GrinningElk Music Company | Gbase.com

Hmmm, perhaps that one had been gigged. That brown's always been my favorite. I know it seems that natural is the choice for folks but it's the tobacco sunburst guitar's of the world that float my boat. I'm even having a hard time resisting the one on the HOC forum. Nope, nope, not until I land a Sweet 16.

Speaking of which:

Will someone PLEASE explain to me why so many 175's are listed for sale at $5k and above. I've seen several listed above $10k. I just don't get it, vintage or not.

[Patrick2]

[quote=2bornot2bop;249494]Hmmm, perhaps that one had been gigged. That brown's always been my favorite. I know it seems that natural is the choice for folks but it's the tobacco sunburst guitar's of the world that float my boat. I'm even having a hard time resisting the one on the HOC forum. Nope, nope, not until I land a Sweet 16.

Speaking of which:

Will someone PLEASE explain to me why so many 175's are listed for sale at $5k and above. I've seen several listed above $10k. I just don't get it, vintage or not.

I'll take a poke at that question. The pricing on the more expensive 175s usually boils down to a collectability thing. I would venture a guess that the ones you might have seen at $10K or above are from the '59 '60 era, have double pups (ES175D) and their both the original double white PAFs. Heck, two all original, unopened double whites by themselves can fetch as much as $5K for the set. Maybe even more!! When they're in an all original ES175DN, in excellent and unaltered condition . . . bring your second mortgage with you if you're gonna buy. An all original 1959 or 1960 ES175DN, excellent condition, with double whites, in its original Lifton case at $10K is probably a better investment than $10K worth of Colgate Palmolive stock, and I wanna see somebody try to play an E-7b5 chord on a stock certificate!!!

[Jazz_175]

At this point I couldn't resist at expressing my general preference of a laminate jazz guitar over a carved archtop.
But tastes can change..who knows....

[2bornot2bop]

At this point I couldn't resist at expressing my general preference of a laminate jazz guitar over a carved archtop.
But tastes can change..who knows....

OT.

You're surrounded by Italian women...life truly is not fair!

[Patrick2]

OT.

You're surrounded by Italian women...life truly is not fair!

Be careful of what you ask for!!!

[2bornot2bop]

Be careful of what you ask for!!!

I said Italian women, not domesticated and mal adjusted American Italian women!

You know the Gina Lollabridgida's and Sophia Loren's of the world. Aren't they all like that in Italy.

Answer my quiz, I know you got this!

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...song-quiz.html

[Patrick2]

I said Italian women, not domesticated and mal adjusted American Italian women!

Apollonia . . . "Michael . . . come on . . you promised."
Michael . . . . "It's safer to teach you english"
Apollonia . . . "I know English . . Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Wednesday,
Friday, Sunday, Saturday . . . . . .

[PTChristopher]

The first time I was ever in Italy was around 1990 in Milan.

Three things impressed me about Italian women:

- There were many very fine women, lovely from the inside out. Co-worker's local WAGs were all great, as were the women I just met in the course of working days and evening hangouts.

- When it rained heavily, then had this way of rocking back on high heels to walk through puddles from poor drainage.

- In their young teens, some formed groups of three and would grope and rob young Japanese guys (in broad daylight, as they say) who could not bring themselves to thwart this effort physically. I saw this once and thought it funny. But then saw it twice in one evening a few days later - probably excessive,...

Chris

[2bornot2bop]

Apollonia . . . "Michael . . . come on . . you promised."
Michael . . . . "It's safer to teach you english"
Apollonia . . . "I know English . . Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Wednesday,
Friday, Sunday, Saturday . . . . . .

Nice to see that I'm not the only one still having nightmares over that brunette beauty...I still long for the return of the days of a drive-in viewing of the Godfather listening to a squak box hung over that crack in the driver's window freezin my ass off with steamed up windows in the back seat of a '55 chevy...those were the daze!

[Patrick2]

I said Italian women, not domesticated and mal adjusted American Italian women!

You know the Gina Lollabridgida's and Sophia Loren's of the world. Aren't they all like that in Italy.

Answer my quiz, I know you got this!

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...song-quiz.html

The first time I was ever in Italy was around 1990 in Milan.

Three things impressed me about Italian women:

- There were many very fine women, lovely from the inside out. Co-worker's local WAGs were all great, as were the women I just met in the course of working days and evening hangouts.

- When it rained heavily, then had this way of rocking back on high heels to walk through puddles from poor drainage.

- In their young teens, some formed groups of three and would grope and rob young Japanese guys (in broad daylight, as they say) who could not bring themselves to thwart this effort physically. I saw this once and thought it funny. But then saw it twice in one evening a few days later - probably excessive,...

Chris

OK . . . so let me see if I've got this right . . . you're in Milan in 1990 . . with all of those beautiful Italian women . . . and THESE are the only three things that impressed you???? You got serious issues!!!

[2bornot2bop]

The first time I was ever in Italy was around 1990 in Milan.

Three things impressed me about Italian women:

- There were many very fine women, lovely from the inside out. Co-worker's local WAGs were all great, as were the women I just met in the course of working days and evening hangouts.

- When it rained heavily, then had this way of rocking back on high heels to walk through puddles from poor drainage.

- In their young teens, some formed groups of three and would grope and rob young Japanese guys (in broad daylight, as they say) who could not bring themselves to thwart this effort physically. I saw this once and thought it funny. But then saw it twice in one evening a few days later - probably excessive,...

Chris

'90 in Milan. You've lived a charmed life is all I gotta say!

[Patrick2]

Nice to see that I'm not the only one still having nightmares over that brunette beauty...I still long for the return of the days of a drive-in viewing of the Godfather listening to a squak box hung over that crack in the driver's window freezin my ass off with steamed up windows in the back seat of a '55 chevy...those were the daze!

She was a beauty indeed! I read somewhere that from that movie, she went on to achieve quite a career in movies in Italy. Micheal was pretty young back then. I hope he knew how to handle that . . . for the short time he had with her. Oh . . . I forgot . . . it was a movie. "Never mind".

[2bornot2bop]

She was a beauty indeed! I read somewhere that from that movie, she went on to achieve quite a career in movies in Italy. Micheal was pretty young back then. I hope he knew how to handle that . . . for the short time he had with her. Oh . . . I forgot . . . it was a movie. "Never mind".

hahahaha!!!! never mind...that's sum funny *hit right there!

I thought it was like a birthright that all Italian's return to visit Italy. What's your story my brother!? I keep tellin' myself I'm still goin', one of these good old daze.

[PTChristopher]

[Patrick] >>> OK . . . so let me see if I've got this right . . . you're in Milan in 1990 . . with all of those beautiful Italian women . . . and THESE are the only three things that impressed you???? You got serious issues!!!

Hey, my first observation was the widespread loveliness.

And I suppose, I had been with my way-fine Belgian wife for only two years by then.

But yes, I seem to have issues anyway.

[2 bop]>>> '90 in Milan. You've lived a charmed life is all I gotta say!

Hah, I guess. But it was a short flight from Brussels, and I spent so much time traveling from Belgium to everywhere, that I used to never unpack. It had its downsides missing time with very young kids, but was great in many ways. (Lack of genuine anonymity limits the road tales.)

Chris

[2bornot2bop]

And I suppose, I had been with my way-fine Belgian wife for only two years by then.

I stand corrected for clearly you've lived a doubly charmed life!!!

[PTChristopher]

Deleted dumb personal details.