Does Species of Wood Matter Once It Is Laminated ?

[Dennis D]

Or put another way, once the guitar builder decided on a laminated top, does it really make any difference what kind of wood is used ? Once you introduce adhesives and any other material involved in laminating, isn't the sound compromised enough that laminated spruce sounds the same as laminated cherry or mahogany or ? Thanks Dennis

[Jim Soloway]

Or put another way, once the guitar builder decided on a laminated top, does it really make any difference what kind of wood is used ? Once you introduce adhesives and any other material involved in laminating, isn't the sound compromised enough that laminated spruce sounds the same as laminated cherry or mahogany or ? Thanks Dennis

It depends. Not all laminates are equal. Some are quite thin and flexible and the character of the component woods can still be heard. Others are heavier and less flexible and the characteristics of the woods are largely overwhelmed by the construction. I think it's fair to say that the more modern laminates tend to demonstrate a lot less character than their predecessors from the 50's and 60's.

[docbop]

Everything I've read say yes it still has an effect on the sound. For example the ibanez GB10 is a spruce top, but the GB12 anniversary model is all maple is said to have a brighter sound. Now some inexpensive guitars the top laminate is for cosmetic reasons and the top layer is usually too thin to make a difference.

[oldane]

In theory, it does matter. However, there are several other variables than just the kind of wood used in the plies: The total thickness of the plywood, the thickness of the individual plies, the kind of glue binding the plies together, the bracing of the top.

One frequently sees a plywood top referred to as "maple" or "spruce" etc. But often the middle layers are different kinds of wood. I have a Painter achtop which has a thin cosmetic maple veneer on the top, but the main part of the top thicknes is mahogany. Now, on Tom Painters archtops, due to the way they are made, it's easy to see what's in between, and Tom also specifies it, but with many guitars it is not specified and the middle layers are hidden by bindings or dark paint (in the f-holes).

I think it's difficult to make any reliable predictions of the sound based on the type of wood alone.

[jayx123]

I'm no expert but as far as I know
Carved top is from a solid wood.
Solid top is laminate 3 piece of the same wood.
Selected top/laminated is laminate where only the top layer is a veneer of the specified wood.

So I think on a solid top (laminate of the same wood type) there should be a difference

[AlohaJoe]

I'm no expert but as far as I know
Carved top is from a solid wood.
Solid top is laminate 3 piece of the same wood.
Selected top/laminated is laminate where only the top layer is a veneer of the specified wood. So I think on a solid top (laminate of the same wood type) there should be a difference

I think this characterization is incorrect. A "solid top" means only one thing... it is all one piece of wood. It may be flat or carved but it is not laminated. It's either solid wood or plywood (lam). There are a variety of ways to make laminates but calling any of them 'solid' would be a misrepresentation as I understand the terms.

[PTChristopher]

Hi A'Joe,

>>> A "solid top" means only one thing... it is all one piece of wood.

That would be my understanding, so that makes two of us. Unfortunately, it may not make that many more than two of us.

For better and worse, the term "solid" has been used to describe spruce tops that are pressed into an arch with a spruce veneer on top. This veneer runs in the same grain direction as the thicker main top piece.

Now in sound terms, I think this sort of top needs to be distinguished from a three (or 5) ply laminate with a cross grain layer (or two).

And such a top can sound great.

But it does make for sub-optimal use of the term "solid".

I really liked how Linc on "The Mod Squad" would say "solid".

Chris

[NSJ]

Hi A'Joe,

>>> A "solid top" means only one thing... it is all one piece of wood.

That would be my understanding, so that makes two of us. Unfortunately, it may not make that many more than two of us.

For better and worse, the term "solid" has been used to describe spruce tops that are pressed into an arch with a spruce veneer on top. This veneer runs in the same grain direction as the thicker main top piece.

Now in sound terms, I think this sort of top needs to be distinguished from a three (or 5) ply laminate with a cross grain layer (or two).

And such a top can sound great.

But it does make for sub-optimal use of the term "solid".

I really liked how Linc on "The Mod Squad" would say "solid".

Chris

J. Hale has a nice description on his website deciphering the marketing. He says, just look for a "CARVED solid top". Usually, when the word "carved" is missing, he says the guitar is generally as you described---pressed into a top with a veneer on top.

[Jim Soloway]

J. Hale has a nice description on his website deciphering the marketing. He says, just look for a "CARVED solid top". Usually, when the word "carved" is missing, he says the guitar is generally as you described---pressed into a top with a veneer on top.

Perhaps in the archtop world, but not necessarily anywhere else. In most of our guitar, we use solid tops that are bent rather than carved. They are absolutely solid wood with no lamination.

[NSJ]

Perhaps in the archtop world, but not necessarily anywhere else. In most of our guitar, we use solid tops that are bent rather than carved. They are absolutely solid wood with no lamination.

Yes, sorry, you are correct. He was talking about archies.

[Jim Soloway]

Yes, sorry, you are correct. He was talking about archies.

In the real world Jeff is probably correct but he should probably also note that that to call a laminated top "solid" it is at least a misuse of the word and at worst misleading. Or at least that's my opinion.

[PTChristopher]

Indeed.

While the Hale write-up is very useful for describing and positioning his products for sale (it is his job after all), there are exceptions. It seems that there are many cases where a helpful marketing write-up may be not 100% useful when re-purposed into general information ("I read it on the web,...").

I think Stewmac strays into such a gray area on several subjects.

I see absolutely no downside to a formed (pressed, bent) top. It is another way to get the job done, and if done by someone with their head screwed on straight (and both thumbs exposed to sunshine) then the thickness can be managed for great effect.

In my opinion.

Chris

[NSJ]

In the real world Jeff is probably correct but he should probably also note that that to call a laminated top "solid" it is at least a misuse of the word and at worst misleading. Or at least that's my opinion.

Yes, that's exactly what he says, too. I should let him speak for himself.

FAQ: Laminated, Solid or Carved Top? J. Hale Music

Specifically:

"Laminate Type 1 (aka Solid Wood). This construction produces a warm, mellow acoustic tone with improved tolerance to amplified feedback. The plate is made from 2 - 3 thin layers of high quality solid wood. Glue is applied between the pieces and then pressed to form an arched shape. The exposed layer of wood is typically a very thin slice of quarter sawn wood with excellent figure, flame or grain pattern. Even though this construction uses a laminate process, most manufacturer’s will use the term ‘Solid Wood’ in their descriptions and specifications. Note that if a manufacturer advertises an archtop as having a solid spruce top, you can bet it’s a laminate and not carved. (This does not hold true for flat top guitars. In this case, solid wood means the plates are made from a single piece of tone wood.)

Laminate Type 2. This construction produces the thinnest acoustic tone and typically has the best tolerance to amplified feedback. The plate is made from multiple layers of unspecified wood (i.e. Plywood). The outermost layer is a very thin veneer which has traditional wood grain figure."

[Patrick2]

[quote=Jim Soloway;237778]

It depends.

Not all laminates are equal. Some are quite thin and flexible and the character of the component woods can still be heard. Others are heavier and less flexible and the characteristics of the woods are largely overwhelmed by the construction.

Agreed. This is best demonstrated in the acoustical tone differences in the Vestax (Japanese) reproductions of the D'Angelico arch tops . . and the later variant (produced in Korea??).

[hot ford coupe]

Then along comes Nathan Daniel, uses a masonite top and Danelectro guitars become a cult classic. Just a joke folks, just a joke.

[Patrick2]

It depends. Not all laminates are equal. Some are quite thin and flexible and the character of the component woods can still be heard. Others are heavier and less flexible and the characteristics of the woods are largely overwhelmed by the construction. I think it's fair to say that the more modern laminates tend to demonstrate a lot less character than their predecessors from the 50's and 60's.

[quote=PTChristopher;237946]Indeed.

While the Hale write-up is very useful for describing and positioning his products for sale (it is his job after all), there are exceptions. It seems that there are many cases where a helpful marketing write-up may be not 100% useful when re-purposed into general information ("I read it on the web,...").

I think Stewmac strays into such a gray area on several subjects.

I see absolutely no downside to a formed (pressed, bent) top. It is another way to get the job done, and if done by someone with their head screwed on straight (and both thumbs exposed to sunshine) then the thickness can be managed for great effect.

In my opinion.

Chris

I don't know that I totally agree with that Chris. Pressing a "solid" top . . or to use Jim Soloway's terminology . . "bending" it into an arch top shape is kind of a cookie cutter approach to an end result. The problem as I see it is that when making cookies . . the cookie batter, if mixed correctly, will be consistent throughout. Wood, however, is very different from tree to tree and even from section to section within the same tree . . as you and Jim are well aware. The pressing/bending method will not allow you to vary a graduation or a thickness/thinness of a top, with the same level of control as hand carving does. That, my friend, is a definite downside. The concept and art of tap tuning even further separates the end result of pressing vs carving.

Also, I would wonder how the whole heating or steaming part of the process effects the cellulous properties of the wood . . or how it might create any molecular change . . . given that cellulous is a form of soluble sugar. Hell, the jury's still out on whether a carved top guitar opens up after playing it for a period of time, because to wood "rings in". If the vibrations created by string oscillations are enough to effect change in the spruce top . . . what is the process of heat pressing causing?

Some make laminate tops better than others. Some of the laminate tops are quite good. Those who are not sandwiching a softer piece of wood between to harder pieces and and not using a glue that doesn't harden adequately . . . . they can get quite a good and vintage laminate arch top tone. But, I hold fast to my belief that a carved solid top will produce a markedly better and more complex acoustical tone.

I'm certainly not a guitar tech or a luthier, so I genuflect to yours and Jim's experience and knowledge. But, if I'm wrong....I'd like to learn where and why.

[edh]

Isn't the bottom line how it sounds to the consumer?

If it has the tone you want then does it matter whether it is lam or carved?

[Patrick2]

Isn't the bottom line how it sounds to the consumer?

If it has the tone you want then does it matter whether it is lam or carved?

I think what we're discussing here, is how you get to the tone you want. Is it through lam? Or is it through carved?

[PTChristopher]

[Patrick] >>> if I'm wrong....I'd like to learn where and why.

Well let's start with those plaid pants you wore to the jazzguitar.be Christmas party last year. I mean that was just wrong.

But otherwise I definitely understand your point. If all the spruce is a given thickness (and has no thickness modulation), then yeah - cookie cutter.

In my opinion.

But I still think some of those formed spruce tops sound quite good, despite the lack of overwhelming personal attention.

Chris

[hot ford coupe]

[Patrick] >>> if I'm wrong....I'd like to learn where and why.

Well let's start with those plaid pants you wore to the jazzguitar.be Christmas party last year. I mean that was just wrong.

But otherwise I definitely understand your point. If all the spruce is a given thickness (and has no thickness modulation), then yeah - cookie cutter.

In my opinion.

But I still think some of those formed spruce tops sound quite good, despite the lack of overwhelming personal attention.

Chris

I definitely agree with the plaid pants assessment, At least, not with the polka dot shirt and yellow hat.--- please.

Chris, I agree with your formed spruce top statement. I've got one of those Vestax D'A beauties and it has a very nice acoustic tone. I went and did a setup on it, (leveled the frets, polished & recrowned them, fiddled with the truss rod, refit the bridge to the top, intonated it and fiddled with the nut a bit) and the tone got way better. It warmed up and was more balanced. It used to sound lousy and now it sounds really great. Can I duplicate that on another guitar? I doubt it. I think I improved this one more by accident and luck than anything else. I'm definitely not a knowledgeable luthier by any means.