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Hi Guys, I'm looking for some input on my DA ll. This is one of,I believe two,New Yorker Cutaways made by Jim Triggs in the early 90's. She is a wonderful piece in every way except for the finish. Somewhere along the way she was subjected to sudden temperature change (stc). The finish is checked badly enough for me to think that chips may fall off later on so my question is, do I leave this original or refinish her? Also how does it change the value? Up or down? Thanks
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06-24-2012 08:44 AM
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Maybe the more "collector-minded" guys can consider the value of having the original builder re-finish it?
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Mike Lennon was the original sprayer for Triggs back then. I've spoken to him but wanted to get your opinions before making the decision. I want to do what's right for the guitar,not refinish it because I'm to anal.
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Here's my opinion on what I would do if it was my guitar;
You are fortunate that the guitar is natural and not shaded in any way. The guitar can be easily "washed down" with acetone, lightly sanded and resprayed. If it was a shaded finish, I would strongly recommend against refinishing it. During the acetone wash, the shading dye would bleed into the wood in the areas of a lighter color. It would then need to be excessively sanded possibly taking too much of the wood away. Even then, there would probably be tell tale signs of a refin . . . especially under a black light. Razor scraping the finish off would also take away too much wood.
If done correctly by a very skilled luthier, the guitar will look as it did when it was brand new. You might even consider a change in appearance.?.? You could easily go with a beautiful sunburst or a violin burst (D'Aquisto) or just about anything you wanted to.
Also, based upon the level of finish checking (crazing) you are describing, I would not attribute your problems totally to temperature change.
If you do decide to go through with this, seek out someone known SPECIFICALLY for his/her refinishing skills . . . not just a great builder.
I've spoken with you several times about that guitar . . and unless you have totally changed your position about it (due to the crazing?) you have no intention of selling it anytime soon. So, why torture yourself with disappointment everytime you look at it? If you were to offer it up for sale, it would be less desireable and therefore worth less in resale value in it's severly crazed and finish checked state, than it would be if expertly refinished. It's a Triggs built D'A II . . . where you gonna get another one of those???? Refin it to its original beautiful appearance. If it was my guitar, I'd do it with no trepidation what so ever.Last edited by Patrick2; 06-24-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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Thank you Patrick, This is exactly what I hoped someone would say. I was unaware of the acetone wash. Can you recommend someone? I also wondered if I should return the guitar to the same finisher. Thinking that his work may have been at fault in some way (spraying to thickly ect,). And I thought I was the only one with the D'Aquisto sunburst idea!! I was watching a Mike Dowling video with his sunburst Triggs,beauty! You've got me going now,no sleep tonight.
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I just now got a look at the pictures. Didn't see them prior to my first reply or the email I just sent to you. Although it's far more than I could ever live with, it's a lot less sever than I imagined, based upon your description. Also, the problem seems to be limited to only the spruce top? I don't see anything on the maple neck, rims or back.?.? Spruce and maple will react differently in expansion and retraction due to temperature and humidity changes. I would also wonder if the moisture content of that top was conducive (ready) to be carved in the first place. You could/should explore the possibility of a top only refin. Some luthiers don't like to take a chance on a top only refin . . . but, I'd at least have the conversation. I would also ask the guy who sprayed it exactly what he used, brand type, of the nitro cell lacquer . . . then communicate that to whom ever does the refin. That will be a consideration if doing a top only refin.
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Patrick, The back has some of the longer lines but nothing like the top. I did ask about doing top only and full refin because,like you say some guys aren't willing to do top only. Tough to get that blending I guess. Having the checking on the back also points toward temperature. As you know these guitars were quite pricey when built I trust Jim chose well dried woods. If I go top only I can't go sunburst. Decisions,decisions,,
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>>> I did ask about doing top only and full refin because,like you say some guys aren't willing to do top only. Tough to get that blending I guess.
I suppose I have shot my share of nitro, including partial re-finishes.
In my opinion, there is no significant difficulty in doing the top only. But if the back is also crazed enough to be bothersome, then why not the whole thing?
>>> Having the checking on the back also points toward temperature.
Well it points to lacquer that was/is more brittle than necessary to live through whatever the guitar experienced.
Yes, temperature is often the culprit because it can be changed both to a great extent and very quickly - while huge ambient humidity swings still can take a few days to have a serious effect on the wood in terms of swelling and shrinking.
Any reasonably competent finisher will have an opinion on the hardness and brittleness of the existing lacquer vs. the fairly commonly used formulas.
I guess I would never want a guitar shot with the supper-goopy lacquer formula used by a major US manufacturer, but going to the Mohawk/Behlen "Stringed Instrument Lacquer", or the Seagrave/McFadden, or the Cardinal lacquer will all be sound choices. In my opinion.
An acetone wash is not without its skill requirements. So I would not conclude that this is automatically a simple way for even a moderately skilled finisher to go. In my opinion, any way the finish is removed (stripper-then-wash, or acetone, or sand then wash) requires some patience and care.
One danger in a partial wash on a modern-ish guitar is that if if the top coats of lacquer are more brittle than any remaining base coats, you can get some remarkably unappealing thin crazing later. But again, a reasonably experienced person will be aware of this.
All in my opinion.
Best of luck with your decisions.
Chris
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IMO that is not weatherchecking but wood that wasnt dried adequately. The length and direction of thne lines is a sign of the wood working
Refin on an original vintage guitar I would say no, but this is not a vintage instrument. It is a newly made repro of a real DAngelico, has a manufacture defect; so I would have Triggs or his finish person fix it. I dont see the point in discussing how a refin would influence the value.
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I definitely get where you're comin' from fws6. Typical crazing would "normally" have both horizontal and vertical lines. However, finish checking or crazing reacts in "crazy" ways. There's no predicting it. But "green wood" was one of my first suspicions as well . . . as noted in my second post. Also, even if the wood is adequately dried out, it could and would still be "working" as you say . . . as it's swelling and retracting due to climate changes.
Regarding asking Triggs to do the repair under warranty.. . I think that would be a tough one to justify. No one can accurately say that improper handling/storage . . . or green wood was definitely to blame. No one really knows, 100% either way. The guitar is approx two decades old.
Regarding the valuation of a reproduction guitar being adversly affected by a refin . . . absolutely! Jim Triggs can be considered in the same vein of a Benedetto or a Montelleone, or a Mark Lacey. Which would you pay more for. . . an all original Benedetto? Or a refin'd Benedetto?
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Hi Chris,Thanks for your input. I think this should be an all or nothing choice. The problem now is to find the right guy to do the work.
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Hi fws6, It seems everyone feels the problem was the wood. Getting Mr. Triggs to agree may be difficult.I've owned many top of the line pieces and never saw one check like this one,all length wise. Thanks for the help.
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Hi Patrick, I agree that the refin would be worth less than the original. But it may be worth while money wise to increase it's present flawed value.I plan on keeping her so it's just a matter of finding the right man to do the job.
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oooohhhh.....nice guitar.
Those finish cracks reminds me of the checking that occured on one batch of instruments from a German maker back in @2001. Their finisher used a catalyzed polyester clearcoat, and he got a little heavy-handed with it, resulting in a bunch of guitars with that exact style of crazing (mostly on the solid and some laminated) spruce tops, rarely on the laminated rims/backs.
Do you know for sure what kind of finish it is?
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If I may comment:
We know that wood exists in three dimensions - OK, no new info there. Guitars, frozen desserts, and the guy who played Squiggy on "Laverne and Shirley" also exist in three dimensions.
The radial and tangential dimensions in wood swell and shrink notably with moisture changes. The longitudinal dimension moves too, but VERY little.
All that you can determine from purely vertical (or in the tree and wood, "longitudinal") checking is that the checking was likely in reaction to change in the wood based on humidity.
As I sort of mentioned (albeit confusingly) before, dramatic and sudden checking is most often from radical changes in temperature. The classic way to craze a modern guitar finish is to have it freeze in the baggage hold of an airliner, then abruptly warm up. This type of checking often shows less of a strong bias for longitudinal (vertical) checking when compared to the guit' in question here.
So yeah, it may be reasonable to say the checking here is because the lacquer was not able to keep up with the changes in the wood due to humidity, as opposed to abrupt changes in temperature.
But in my opinion, it is not at all reasonable to conclude that the guitar was made with insufficiently seasoned wood. This is a for a few reasons, but this post is too long and dull already.
But if the maker does not agree that the wood moisture content at the time of the build was at fault, my opinion is that there are good reasons to believe him, and only Harmony Central and TGP style "reasons" to form up a lynch mob based on the "conclusion" that the state of the wood in manufacture was the problem.
Many things could have happened to cause the wood the swell radially on the top, and radially and tangentially on the back, to an extent that the lacquer could not follow.
With no info on the type of lacquer and the apparent brittleness of it at this point, my opinion is that all failure scenarios are guesses at best - with "badly seasoned wood" some distance down the list of guesses.
In my opinion.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 06-24-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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PTChris . . . you sound a little flustered here Chris. Chill man. Only one person in this thread said, conclusively, that he believed the longitudinal checking was due to using wood that was not yet ready. Others, myself included, only speculated that using moist, or inadequately dried wood MIGHT be considered as a possibility. My assumption was based upon the appearance of the crazing . . . and the understanding that archtop guy is knowledgeable enough to not subject such an instrument to extreme and sudden changes in the ambient.
It is agreed that the checking was caused by wood flex . . or expansion and shrinkage . . and as you appropriately pointed out, doing so at a pace that the lacquer couldn't keep up with. But, me, you, Jim triggs and no one else would know, for certain, if it was residual moisture as a result of premature usage of the billet/blank .. .or if it was exposure to extreme changes in the ambient. I would conclude/assume/guess . . that it was the latter, not the former. Mostly because, as I said earlier, this guitar is some 20 years old. Archtop guy hasn't had it for 20 years . . or 15 years, or maybe not even 10 years. I'm also pretty certain he didn't buy it looking like it does. But, because archtop guy is not ignorant of such potential problems, I would call into question the type nitro used. Was it too "hard"? Too high a percentage of solids . .. if any? Too brittle, thus unable to keep up with the pace of "flex"? Incorrectly appied? No one will ever know. It's at a point now where archtop guy just needs to get the damn thing refin'd, correctly and move on.
I would also suggest that you have now exposed youself as knowledgeable enough to be considered as a possiblity for doing the refin.
I know that if it was my guitar, I'd certainly be PM'ing you for your personal contact info so we could discuss it live. It sounds to me like you would know exactly how to tackle this.
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>Jim Triggs can be considered in the same vein of a Benedetto or a Montelleone, or a Mark Lacey. Which would you pay more for. . . an all original Benedetto? Or a refin'd Benedetto?
I dont think quite in the same league, but lets save that discussion for another thread. Hand-built guitars would come with a lifetime warranty to the original owner. I am sure that if Benedetto had hand-built an instrument with a defect he would also repair it free of cost no matter if he made it 1 or 20 years ago. I dont think it would be a matter of dispute at all, these guys are very attached to their reputation of delivering the best of the best only.
The guitar in question is not a vintage guitar, Triggs started off building DA copies and still is today (although today he puts his own name on the headstock as he should). If an unwise or unlucky choice has been made in the selection of the wood he undoubtely should, and I suppose is more than willing to, redo the finish.
So I stick with my thoughts above. Refinishing a vintage instrument means ruining part of the history of the guitar and never advisable. Also market wise wrong decision. Repairing a recent guitar with a manufacturing defect by the original builder is normal warranty work and to my idea inevitable in this case. Value wise also . The crack pattern suggesting green wood will scare more people away / i.e. have more influence on the value, than a professionally executed repair job by the builder himself.
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[Patrick] >>> you sound a little flustered here Chris. Chill man.
Ooooh, then I sounded more intense about this than I meant to. Thanks for suggesting a smoother tone.
>>> I would also suggest that you have now exposed youself as knowledgeable enough to be considered as a possiblity for doing the refin.
It has been fairly hot around here for the past 5 days and exposing myself was just so I could try to cool down some.
It was/is not my intent to solicit work here, but rather to have some fun talking guitars.
Chris
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Hammertone, I don't know what the finish is. As far as I know Mr. Triggs has always used nitro. This was one of his first projects after leaving Gibson. He may have been just setting up shop at that time,or getting his materials from D'Angelico ll for the project. I'm going to contact him and ask for his help and see what he says. Thanks for your knowledge.
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Chris, Thanks for your thoughts. As Patrick has stated you seem quite versed on this subject. The guitar is 20 years old and I'm the third owner. Who knows what it's been through. I am sorry to confess to you all that I did in fact buy the guitar in it's present state. I simply loved it to much to let it get away from me. I'll never be able to own an original New Yorker but this one plays,sounds,feels and looks like one. I'll use this reply to thank all of you for your efforts and to end this thread before it bores everyone to death. I'll let you know what Mr. Triggs has to say.
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I dont think quite in the same league, but lets save that discussion for another thread.
That's a conversation I would be very interested in having. I would be curious how, specifically, you or anyone else could possibly quantify Bob's skills and talents over Jim's.
Hand-built guitars would come with a lifetime warranty to the original owner. I am sure that if Benedetto had hand-built an instrument with a defect he would also repair it free of cost no matter if he made it 1 or 20 years ago. I dont think it would be a matter of dispute at all, these guys are very attached to their reputation of delivering the best of the best only.
Implied warranties are specifically stated to cover defects in workmanship and/or materials. It is, as of yet undetermined what caused the crazing. It is, at this point only speculation . . . and mostly by non experts like you and I. The only expert who has weighed in on this . . PTChris . . . seems to point to reasons unrelated to workmanship and/or materials. But, he too is not certain. To your point, it would definitely be worth making a run at Triggs to refin the guitar . . . either at no charge or at a reduced charge. Kind of . . split the cost do to the uncertainty of the cause. But, if Triggs did agree to it, it would be a courtesy on his behalf and not an obligation.
If an unwise or unlucky choice has been made in the selection of the wood
We'll never know, *for sure*, one way or another.
So I stick with my thoughts above. Refinishing a vintage instrument means ruining part of the history of the guitar and never advisable.
Never???? Never say never!! Chinery saw fit and appropriate to refin the infamous D'Angelico Tear Drop.
The crack pattern suggesting green wood will scare more people away / i.e. have more influence on the value, than a professionally executed repair job by the builder himself.
Agreed! As I said all along, I would do a refin on that guitar with absolutely no trepidation what so ever. (I underlined the operative word of your statement)
Jeez . . . I really love this multiquote thingy.Last edited by Patrick2; 06-25-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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[Archtop Guy]>>> you seem quite versed on this subject.
Well yeah, I guess. I first sprayed nitrocellulose around 1978, and last sprayed it about a month ago - new finishes as well as repairs. But that does not necessarily make my opinion any more interesting or useful than another, in my opinion.
>>> The guitar is 20 years old and I'm the third owner. Who knows what it's been through.
I understand. It may be worth noting, as the warranty and "name builder" thoughts go around, that Benedetto specifically does not warrant finish checking.
This is not a prediction of how your builder will see the situation of course.
>>> I'll let you know what Mr. Triggs has to say.
It will be great to hear how this ends up going. Thanks.
Chris
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What an interesting read. So there are those that believe a guitars creator should be responsible for a guitars finish some 20 years after building a guitar, in spite of the fact any 20 year old guitar has been subjected to the care, or lack of in some cases, of its owner(s) over that time period. Very interesting indeed.
If you decide to refinish the top or the entire guitar I'd recommend my local luthier's work next to anyone. He regularly works on very high dollar guitars, from vintage to current, and mostly nitro-celluouse finishes. I've observed his work on tops, refinishes, and total color changes with amazing results.
He's the main luthier used by archtop.com, and both are in Seattle. He's regularly working on guitars shipped to him as far away as Europe. He's old school, and a downright kool cat who'll treat you right and give it to you straight. Lemuel's Guitars: Lemuel Guitars
At any rate good luck with your guitar!
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Originally Posted by Archtop Guy
She's a beauty! Off topic she reminds me of guitars I've seen listed on eBay featuring distant pics that aren't close enough to reveal blem's, and of course the sellers fail to acknowledge same. I've acquired a few of those.
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Dear 2borno2bop, Yeah it's hard to blame someone after a twenty year separation. But,you don't know when this happened or if this was the only one it happened to. May have been the whole batch. There were four or five pieces made. Your right about the photos. The guy I bought the guitar off did state that she had some checking and that he couldn't get a clear photo of them having to catch them in just the right light. I didn't have any trouble shooting that final photo. Needless to say he understated the amount of checking. Thanks for the lead on a refinisher. I haven't been able to contact Mr. Triggs yet but I don't have much faith in the outcome. Buyer beware!
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