what makes a builder "boutique? "

**mr. beaumont** · 06-02-2012, 07:24 AM

A side discussion popped up in another thread and I sorta squashed it...folks were interested though so here is a new thread for it.

**rpguitar** · 06-02-2012, 07:38 AM

In my opinion, that designation requires that the builder - the actual person wielding the chisels - must be accessible for personal and direct contact with the client. No dealer network, no customer service department, and so on. Price and yearly output are not the determining factors of a "boutique" shop. It's accessibility and personal responsiveness to a client's questions and requests that earn you the title.

**barrymclark** · 06-02-2012, 07:53 AM

My interpretation is close to the basic definition of boutique: small shop with relatively greatly limited means and crew. I don't share the romanticized view of a single builder that builds his or her products under the dim glow of a single candle nor is my view based on the output quality. It merely has to do with the relative size of the company. A boutique builder can put out garbage and still be boutique. That's how I see it.

**jorgemg1984** · 06-02-2012, 07:55 AM

Marketing?

**Archtop 13** · 06-02-2012, 08:38 AM

Boutique to me means a high end, hands on/person owned company. They make products the "Bigs" can't or won't produce.

**kris** · 06-02-2012, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Marketing?

I think it is marketing.

**rpguitar** · 06-02-2012, 09:47 AM

No. Smiley faces or not, it isn't marketing. It's accessibility and responsiveness to the customer. The term "boutique" comes from us, not them. So it isn't marketing. Many fine small builders worthy of the title do not market themselves well at all, actually - some to their own detriment.

**iim7V7IM7** · 06-02-2012, 10:05 AM

It's a term mostly used by Internet gear “cork sniffers” to put a positive connotation to small manufacturers of guitar gear who are not well distributed by retailers. The items made by these companies are usually very high in quality and expensive relative to main stream products. Most sell directly to customers or through extremely limited distribution channel of dealers. Many of these companies will also make customized versions of their gear for individual customers.

**SamBooka** · 06-02-2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Marketing?

you beat me to it...

**Patrick2** · 06-02-2012, 10:37 AM

My interpretation of the concept of boutiqe, is small, unaffiliated, product or service focused. This can be applied to just about anything and any industry, and often is. You can travel on vacation and stay at a Ritz Carlton . . . or, you can stay at a "mom & pop" boutiqe hotel on the beach. Your wife can shop for her next outfit at Nordstroms . . or she can shop at a small boutique store on the strip.

Many of the definitions posted above can and should be associated with the concept of "custom shop" guitar builders. In my opinion, that's a more appropriate term.

rpguitar and barrymclark gave good definitions of what a custom shop is and should be. If we choose to call that a boutique shop . . then so be it.

I've told the story here before of how in 1994 I drove from NJ to K'zoo to visit Heritage to pick out my first ever Heritage guitar. I didn't know them and they didn't know me. I opened the door, walked down the steps and stated my reason for being there. I was asked to wait a minute. Then, a guy walked up to me, introduced himself as "JP" and said he's the guy who chooses the woods. Asked me top follow him to the spruce and maple blanks. Together, we selected all of the wood that was going to be used on my Golden Eagle. Then, he introduced me to "Ren". Said, this is the guy that will help you define the electric sound you're after. Then, he introduced me to a guy he identified as The President of The Heritage, Jim Deurloo. Jim looked at me and said . . "you guys from Jersey really got big balls". (we still laugh about that today) Then, he proceeded to give me a tour of the Heritage plant, and the parts of the building that used to be Gibson, of which he was the plant manager for Gibson . . back in the day. After the tour, he introduced me to Marv Lamm. Jim said . . . tell Marv what you want the neck to feel like. Marv and I went through about 25 finished guitars until I said . . "this is THE neck!" Marv measured the neck in at least 10 different areas. Then, he explained to me that he personally would "roll" the neck to be sure the dimensions were correct. He also said that the neck I selected had an asymmetric profile, explaining that the treble side of the neck was less cheeky. Then he showed me by having me look at the back of the neck straight on. He pointed out how I could see the neck binding on the treble side . . but, the cheekiness of the bass side prevent me from seeing the binding. I said . . . "do it". I had no idea that I had just interfaced with all of the founding owners!

That 1994 Golden Eagle is still my "go-to" arch top. That's one that I'll go to my grave with.

I just don't know where else I could have or would have ever been treated like that.

Vejesse pointed out how the members over at HOC can sometime get over protective of the company, the brand, the headstock . . . and can sometime be blind to their short comings. It's because of the people at The Heritage. Personally, I am less tolorant to their occasional screw ups. I love them all . . . but, I readily point out their mis-steps . . . just as I would with anybody else in my family.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-02-2012, 10:53 AM

"Boutique" doesn't really have a positive connotation to me...it stinks of "self defined exclusivity" much like Gibson and Fender's "limited edition" crap...the attempt to make something exclusive or collectible because there's a finite # of them (the world of $400 distortion pedals, for example...klon anyone?)

I find terms like "independent lutheir" or "small company" much more positive...I'm guessing these are terms folks would actually like to hear others use about their business.

**jorgemg1984** · 06-02-2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

No. Smiley faces or not, it isn't marketing. It's accessibility and responsiveness to the customer. The term "boutique" comes from us, not them. So it isn't marketing. Many fine small builders worthy of the title do not market themselves well at all, actually - some to their own detriment.

I just said because I knew I would get some quick responses... and I disagree with you. In an ideal world yes - a brand would slowly build their reputation and would be associated to boutique by their own customers. On the era of marketing and TGP forums it's easy to be boutique and overpriced...

**iim7V7IM7** · 06-02-2012, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

"Boutique" doesn't really have a positive connotation to me...it stinks of "self defined exclusivity" much like Gibson and Fender's "limited edition" crap...the attempt to make something exclusive or collectible because there's a finite # of them (the world of $400 distortion pedals, for example...klon anyone?)

I find terms like "independent lutheir" or "small company" much more positive...I'm guessing these are terms folks would actually like to hear others use about their business.

Jeff,

It doesn't bother me one way or another. It's just a "name". Most companies don't proclaim themselves as "boutique". That is done by others. Boutique used to mean just highly specialized in a World of diversified companies.

:-)

Bob

**barrymclark** · 06-02-2012, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

"Boutique" doesn't really have a positive connotation to me...it stinks of "self defined exclusivity" much like Gibson and Fender's "limited edition" crap...the attempt to make something exclusive or collectible because there's a finite # of them (the world of $400 distortion pedals, for example...klon anyone?)

I find terms like "independent lutheir" or "small company" much more positive...I'm guessing these are terms folks would actually like to hear others use about their business.

Totally agree with 'self defined'. That is why I prefer the more textbook definition of the term as it has less wiggle room on what boutique is. Self defined isnt limited to just the manufacturers calling themselves that but also consumers looking for exclusivity as well.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-02-2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Jeff,

It doesn't bother me one way or another. It's just a "name". Most companies don't proclaim themselves as "boutique". That is done by others. Boutique used to mean just highly specialized in a World of diversified companies.

:-)

Bob

Having recently spent a big chunk of my life in this end of the business, I'd agree with this. I also think that this debate, which I've seen countless times on various internet fora is pretty much a chat room time waster. It's just a word that people (usually not those who are involved in the business in any way) find convenient to imply that a builder is too small to have their products available in main stream music stores. Beyond that, like any word of loose definition, it means whatever you want it to, as should already be evident from this thread.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-02-2012, 12:08 PM

That's pretty much my point...I doubt that any of the makers who are put into this category by others see it as a badge of honor.

Handmade...small shop...custom shop...independent builder...those are words/phrases to be proud of.

"Boutique" is a term nerdy guys on internet forums can be proud of.

**kris** · 06-02-2012, 01:25 PM

I am looking for China "Boutique" with jazz boxes...:-)

**Jabberwocky** · 06-02-2012, 02:18 PM

Boutique: I have it and you don't. Johann Gustavsson guitars, anyone?

Boutique: building it the way you want it even though the luthier knows that you had very bad ideas.

Boutique: buying it, not to play it but to display it. Scharpach, anyone?

Boutique: Mother of Pearl this, Mother of Pearl that, Abalone everywhere. Sounds bad, plays worse but one of a kind. I have it and you don't.

Boutique: Gibson L-5 Florintine . "I thought it was a good idea at that time".

**Jim Soloway** · 06-02-2012, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Boutique: I have it and you don't. Johann Gustavsson guitars, anyone?

Boutique: building it the way you want it even though the luthier knows that you had very bad ideas.

Boutique: buying it, not to play it but to display it. Scharpach, anyone?

Boutique: Mother of Pearl this, Mother of Pearl that, Abalone everywhere. Sounds bad, plays worse but one of a kind. I have it and you don't.

Boutique: Gibson L-5 Florintine . "I thought it was a good idea at that time".

Or it could mean getting a guitar that has spacing that works for you but isn't commercially available.

Or pickup combinations that make sense but aren't offered by Gibson or Fender.

Or has a neck profile that you like but can't get on a stock Gibson

Or that it weighs under 6 lbs and doesn't neck dive.

Or, who knows, maybe it even has it's own tonal concept that works for your playing and can't be found hanging on the wall at Guitar Center.

It's not all just evil hucksterism and wealthy boomer self-indulgence. (Although fashionable internet cynicism would like to claim that is so).

**Jabberwocky** · 06-02-2012, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Or it could mean getting a guitar that has spacing that works for you but isn't commercially available.

Or pickup combinations that make sense but aren't offered by Gibson or Fender.

Or has a neck profile that you like but can't get on a stock Gibson

Or that it weighs under 6 lbs and doesn't neck dive.

Or, who knows, maybe it even has it's own tonal concept that works for your playing and can't be found hanging on the wall at Guitar Center.

It's not all just evil hucksterism and wealthy boomer self-indulgence. (Although fashionable internet cynicism would like to claim that is so).

That's called small-time, handmade, custom shop, independent builder. Boutique? Naw. Cynicism keeps us honest, nothing fashionable about that.

You know what makes me cynical? Slap two slabs of "old-growth" mahogany and maple together, set in two humbuckers wound with machines acquired from the factory that purportedly wound those 50s PAFs, glue down a pre-CITES Braz. fretboard, and for only $14 500.00, you can have one that plays like a real-deal original 59 Les Paul... so sez a few pundits; the wait is long but I happen to be selling mine for a low low price of $9999.99.

That's "boutique".

**jorgemg1984** · 06-02-2012, 03:14 PM

Mr b you've transformed this forum into TGP Jazz

**hot ford coupe** · 06-02-2012, 04:33 PM

The word "boutique" to me brings up images of things that are waaaaaaaay too expensive for me, maybe even overpriced.

In reality, you should be getting something much better than you can get "off the rack" and not just fancier. Wood selection should be extra careful, be of very high tonal quality and visual appeal that you just don't see in a place like Gibson where they have to deal in bulk. Not only should the maker give you what you need, but more importantly, they should also provide you with valid guidance concerning features you don't want or need according to your playing style and why.