Acoustic quality of electric archtop

[TonyPGH]

Just wondering how much the "acoustic sound quality" of an electric archtop guitar would effect its "electric sound quality"?

When choosing between two same models, if one sounded better unplugged would you expect it to sound better plugged in as well?

I often play my electrics unplugged for practice around the house, so it is a plus when they sound good acoustically.

[kris]

The most important thing for electric sound is pick up.
The most impotrant thing for acoustic sound is wood.
good pick up + good wood = great sound
also nut,bridge, tailpiece are very important...:-)

[bborzell]

I think Kris got it the first time. The effect of different pickups, nuts, bridges and, to a lesser degree, in my view, different tailpieces is probably greater than the effect provided by inherent acoustical qualities between two archtops.

That said, the acoustic quality of my Loar is simply enhanced by plugging it in; it becomes louder. But plugging in my Kingpin produces a tone of a slightly different color from the unplugged sound. Then again, one guitar has a mini HB and the other a P90.

[PTChristopher]

>>> if one sounded better unplugged would you expect it to sound better plugged in as well?

In my opinion, the answer is that every possible combination of yes, no, partially, inversely proportional, inexplicably so, etc. exists.

Sure, many electrics capture their fine acoustic tone when they have one.

But many sound awful un-plugged and great plugged.

And some sound so promising unplugged, then remarkably not-so-fine when amplified.

Many sound fine unplugged but nothing at all like that when amplified, but still quite good.

In my opinion, every possible condition is out there if you mess around with enough guitars.

I'm sure this thread can go on to find some patterns that may be helpful. But since we are usually talking about one player on one guitar:

- Yes, many guitars that sound good acoustically sound good (although sometimes quite different) when amp'ed. And the more carved/hollow/acoustic the design, the more likely that the acoustic sound will have a big impact on the amplified sound.

- But there are enough exceptions (with all types of guitars) that I'd always want to hear the guitar under the conditions that it will be used.

(EDIT: Except for Les Pauls. The world has suffered more than too much imaginary or beyond-insignificant "tone" from micro variations on this very utilitarian log. Respect for the LP, but enough already with the "tone" analysis.)

In my opinion.

Chris

[Franz 1997]

In my opinion, the answer is that every possible combination of yes, no, partially, inversely proportional, inexplicably so, etc. exists.

Chris, your syntax continues to adorn our pedestrian mumblings

[TonyPGH]

Thanks guys for the responses, that's sort of what I might of assumed. Perhaps there is some complex relationship between the two that is hard to define. I guess it's easiest to just evaluate amplified / un-amplified separately. Then weight them based on how important each is to you.

Makes me wonder whether I should buy acoustic archtops instead of electric. Though often I don't want them too loud acoustically either, for practice around the family, but want them to sound nice.

I wish great un-amplified tone = great amplified tone! Like you say, sometimes this is the case, if your lucky.

[Norman931]

I have given up on having one guitar that will do it all. Get a big acoustic sound, and it howls like a banshee when you plug it in. A great electric with no feedback issues sounds lame without the amp. So the answer is to keep an acoustic AND an electric, to use as the situation call for.

However, my Godin Kingpin can get a useable acoustic sound in a pinch. I have comped behind singers with it, unplugged.

[TonyPGH]

Or you just need more guitars, for every occasion!

[oldane]

The most important thing for electric sound is pick up.
The most impotrant thing for acoustic sound is wood.
good pick up + good wood = great sound
also nut,bridge, tailpiece are very important...:-)

I find that the strings and the pick means a good deal more than the PU. Much of the sound of the PU can be tweaked with the controls on the guitar and the amp and that way differencies between PUs can be leveled out. Differencies in strings and picks also means differencies in the sound of the attack which is a great part of the "overall tone" and the attack is much more difficult to change with EQ.

I have given up on having one guitar that will do it all. Get a big acoustic sound, and it howls like a banshee when you plug it in. A great electric with no feedback issues sounds lame without the amp. So the answer is to keep an acoustic AND an electric, to use as the situation call for.

+1. Also what I have arrived at.

For amplifed playing, my best sounding electric jazz box is a plywood guitar which acoustically sounds like a monkey farting in a tin can. It can pass for practicing but certainly not for other peoples ears.

For acoustic playing, my best guitar is a 19" non cutaway fully carved archtop. It doesn't have a PU, but I'm sure it would feed back like mad if it had. I have a Benedetto Fratello which sounds nice acoustically, but I like its amplfied sound (with a Bendetto S6 PU) so little that I only use it acoustically.

[rpguitar]

There is at least one general principle that can be applied. The more string vibration energy is exhausted within the body of the instrument, the less energy there is available for the strings to continue self-oscillating.

This affects everything.

Acoustic instruments are designed to accept and respond to string vibration energy by self-resonating. In contrast, a solidbody is designed to isolate the vibration energy within the string itself, and to amplify it with pickups. When an instrument has a hollow cavity in it, such as a typical full-sized archtop, the top is intended to capture the string vibrations via the bridge and do the bulk of the vibrating. A carved top is usually thinner than a laminated top, and is therefore more responsive to this sound energy. The depth and dimensions of the hollow box primarily affect the tonal response - treble and bass - in addition to sustain.

So a laminated top vibrates less than a carved top, leaving more sustain to stay in the strings. This produces more sustain in the sound when amplified, but less acoustic volume. Confusing, isn't it? Well, not really. But it's counter-intuitive if all you do is read people's opinions on the internet who say "carved tops are better." It's more complicated than that!

There are more phenomena at work... Some really lightweight, pure acoustic instruments have dead notes or "wolf" tones, because that particular note matches the instrument's intrinsic resonant frequency, and the energy is so quickly dissipated within the guitar that the string is effectively stifled.

It is also why more acoustically live instruments that can also be plugged in sound better when they have hotter pickups. The hotter pickup captures more of the string vibration, and counteracts (to a degree) the effect of diminished string energy via acoustic coupling. Try using Strat single coils on a sem-hollow. It's thin and anemic. Not so on a solid alder Strat, though. It's why people like full-sized humbuckers on archtops, and ballsy single coils like the Charlie Christian and DeArmond models. The clearer, brighter Johnny Smith style is a weaker pickup that appeals to a different crowd, but is not the archetypal "warm" jazz tone. That tone requires a hotter pickup on a hollow archtop.

But that's not all. String vibration is also affected by the bridge and tailpiece - or more generically, the strings' anchor points (assuming a standard nut and headstock). The more stiff and resistant to vibration loss that mechanism is, the more the string gets to sustain. That's why a metal Tune-o-matic has a longer sustain with more rich overtones than a wooden bridge. It's why a Les Paul has great sustain. It puts all of this together: Solid body, metal bridge and tailpiece, humbucking pickups.

All of these factors come together in very complex and interactive ways when considering how an amplified guitar will sound. It's fun to discuss and there are certainly generalities, but you simply must play a lot of instruments to gain any kind of practical understanding about what's going on.

[kris]

If You would like to buy jazz box first question is:
woud you like to play more acoustic or more electric on it?
....
some guitars with good acoustic sound is difficult to amplyfy...they sound exelent at low volume.

[PTChristopher]

Ah, one of those 'meaning of guitar life' threads,...

[Oldane]>>> Differencies in strings and picks also means differencies in the sound of the attack which is a great part of the "overall tone" and the attack is much more difficult to change with EQ.

Huge point in my opinion.

There are specific and simple technical aspects to string vibration, but they are very unpopular in discussion (for various reasons I suppose).

But 100% agreed that the dynamic and harmonic aspects of attack far outweigh many other parts of "tone" that get players all dew-eyed over personal attention and boutique components.

Roger,

Great treatise. Thanks.

To pick one part for discussion:

>>> Some really lightweight, pure acoustic instruments have dead notes or "wolf" tones, because that particular note matches the instrument's intrinsic resonant frequency,

I'd say ALL lightweight and acoustic instruments have these resonant peaks. I see no way to avoid them, only ways to control or diffuse them.

Listen to Segovia on his famous 1937 Hauser and you hear the occasional WTF notes.

Acoustic resonant peaks (or valleys, or nadirs) come with the territory on resonant instruments.

Hilariously enough (if you find this sort of thing hilarious), the super-heavy Les Pauls of the late 70's often had a sharp resonant peak as well. Sitting here I can not recall the exact frequency, maybe D at the 12th??? (293.6 Hz), but it was funny to get such a "wolf note" out of something that weighed more than my car (an early 70's Chevelle Laguna with a huge dent in it).

Anyway, great post.

Chris

[Spook410]

If you want to capture the fine acoustic tone of a hand carved, all solid wood archtop, doesn't seem that electric guitar strings driving a humbucker feeding an amp with a 12" speaker is going to get you there. It may sound good (even damn good), but it won't capture the acoustic nature of the instrument.

When I amplify a flat top I use a Sunrise pickup/pre-amp and, when I'm not lazy, a decent mic mixed in. This is run to a full range system and it does a decent job of reflecting the instrument whether run with a pick or fingerstyle. It's not clear to me what the archtop equivalent is (never liked piezo's).

[rpguitar]

Thank you Chris for trying to decipher my babble. There's so much involved that it hardly pays to have brief, simplistic responses to these sorts of forum questions. But a full treatise, as it were, bores most people.

Shut up and play yer guitar, it's been said...

The next post from Spook about capturing the acoustic tone via electric components is really a tangent from the original topic, just to point that out. The OP is asking how the acoustic quality affects the electric tone, presumably when the latter is amplified by a magnetic pickup. I personally have decided that he only way to capture acoustic sound is with a high quality condenser microphone. An acoustic archtop sounds like an electric guitar when amplified with a magnetic pickup, and that works just fine IMHO.

[docbop]

It's all about string vibration and the pickups that covert those vibration to signal for the amp. IMO is a guitar resonates will (sounds good) that will affect the electric sound too. But as Kris pointed out there are a lot of factors string, woods, bridges, nuts, tailpiece and all play a role too.

For me my general rule of thumb if a guitar solid or hollow body sounds good unpluged it should sound good plugged in.

[Archtop 13]

The original question "should two identical guitars, one sounding better than the other acoustically, sound the same plugged in?". That's a pretty big can of worms. I first want to know why one doesnt sound as good? If they are identical, it probably comes down to setup. So yes, the properly set up guitar will sound better, more than likely.
On another note, I liked the natural tone of a Fishman Archtop bridge pickup. However, I am of the same thought as above, that a good mic is the only way to capture an acoustic instrument.