Dimarzio 211-212 vs Benedetto Pickups

[Jazzchief1]

Replacing the pickups on an Artcore I'm rebuilding. Any suggestions. I mostly play old standards, but do a little jazz and blues. Anybody out there that has used the Dimarzio 211 -212 combos or Benedettos? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[amusiathread]

I always take my business to Pete from Vintage Vibe. He really takes his time asking questions to find out what you're after, he makes a killer product, and while he's more expensive than production pickups like Dimarzio, his prices are really reasonable for the caliber or tonesnobbery that he aims for.

[robertm2000]

I second everything Amusia said about Pete Biltoft and Vintage Vibe guitar pickups. After half a dozen very detailed emails Pete sent me the pickups he made. I installed them in a Frankenstein guitar - Fender Squier 51 neck and hardware and USA Custom Guitars Strat 51 body (like a Squier 51 but routed for Pete's pickups). It sounded so good and played so well I sold all my other electric guitars, over a dozen of them.

[coolvinny]

I love my Buscarino PAF humbucker. I have one in my jazztele and I'm having one installed in the laminate hollowbody I'm picking up next month. I briefly owned an Artcore AF125 and was not impressed with the pickups. The Buscarino is considerably better. It also looks super fly, which doesn't hurt.

[Clamps]

Classic 57's are the wave to ride on.

[TSP]

Classic 57's are the wave to ride on.

yes those are very good. i have a benedetto B6 in my Heritage and love it. very warm and articulate. not high output. on the mellow side.

[oldane]

+1 for the Biltoft PUs.

I have Pete Biltofts HCC in two guitars and like it a lot. With this and many others of Pete Biltofts PUs you have the choice of magnets in varying strengths (from Alnico II to Ceramic) making the output going from mellow to hot. I don't have wast experience with many PUs, because the HCCs work well for me, so I see no need to go on experimenting.

That said, The differencies between various PUs mostly are not so big it can't be equalled out on the tone controls on the amp. The question is if it's really worth it to swap one humbucker for another humbucker. Or swap a P90 for a HCC. Maybe one is better off buying a good EQ unit which can provide much more tone variety than a PU swap.

One tendency I have noticed is that humbuckers can often be a bit muddy in the bass when the top is dialled in for a mellow jazz tone, while the top can be a bit harsh when the bottum is dialled in for clarity. That is hard to dial away in the EQ (at least for me). Single coil PUs tend to be more balanced in that respect and generally have a little better note separation of chords. The difference is not big, though. For this reason I like the HCC better than the two original "holy grail" PAFs in my 1961 ES175. I think there's a lot of hype about those old PAFs. OTOH, single coils are more noisy - especially they will almost always hum when you don't touch any of the hardware connected to ground (strings, tuners, tailpiece etc.).

Just my one cent. Over and out - running for shelter from all those know more about PUs than me and will no doubt disagree.

[AlohaJoe]

I have one of Pete Biltoft's HCC blade pups in a single pickup Guild x150 and it's my favorite sound. I have guitars worth more that don't sound anywhere near as good. It just says jazz to me. Very Wes... dark, but clear and with good articulation. I think an Artcore would love them.

[jorgemg1984]

Classic 57's are the wave to ride on.

I disagree, I had a Classic 57 in my X-500 and then put a Bare Knuckles Stormy Monday which is much much better and just 30€ more expensive. The Classic 57 is not worh the prrice imo.

[PTChristopher]

The pickup carousel -

New pickups sure do make many players happier about their guitars. The actual causality at work is sometimes hard to reconcile with the broadly distributed (near random?) description of tone when remarkably similar pickups are exchanged. But whatever works is "all good" as they say.

My one not-totally-useless comment is about the B6 pickup.

[TSP] >>> benedetto B6 in my Heritage and love it. very warm and articulate. not high output. on the mellow side.

In my opinion and experience the B6 has can have a very high output when positioned very close to the strings, but sounds by far the best when backed off considerably. Then it is exactly as TSP describes it: [The B6 is] very warm and articulate, not high output, on the mellow side.

When run up very close to the strings, the B6 could easily pass for a 1978 heavy metal replacement PU - which is sort of ironic, or maybe more accurately, alnico-nic.

The B6 and S6 pickups have blades that are shaped remarkably differently from each other. Both PU's seem to sound best (to me, anyway) when positioned far enough from the strings that the blade shape effects are greatly reduced.

In my opinion.

Chris

[Spook410]

Would be nice if someone would take a recording spectrum analyzer and capture each pickup while constraining all the other variables as much as possible. In the meantime it's hard to nail all this down.

There seem to be a few pickups that (almost) everyone agrees on like the KA handwound (@ $190). That and in general I don't see many folks unhappy with their boutique PAF's. Thing is, I'm not really sure how much difference it makes compared to other factors. Therefore my wholly subjective vote is for Gibson Classic 57 humbuckers or Seymour Duncan Seth Lovers. They may not be better than boutique PAF's, but they represent the classic jazz sound we've all been nurtured on and they can be had on Ebay for decent deals.

[PTChristopher]

>>> Would be nice if someone would take a recording spectrum analyzer and capture each pickup while constraining all the other variables as much as possible.

I wonder.

I made my first pickups around 1978. I only owned one batch of 42 ga. wire (from Magnet Wire Supply, Chatsworth, CA - funny the details you remember. Of course I could be remembering the name incorrectly.) - but that was enough to really play with many PU design ideas.

Anyway, it only takes a handful pickups to get the basic ideas of magnet type, spool shape, how much wire etc.. After that it gets very subtle, to the point of absurdity, in my opinion.

>>> They may not be better than boutique PAF's,

I do note that many happy boutique experiences are described very much in terms of the human factors, and a sense of custom and personal attention from the builder.

I do not wish to disparage the custom (or customer service, or personal attention) experience that many players report enjoying very much. It just does not hold an overwhelming appeal to me.

I have the opinion that any given fully-charged (more or less) Alnico V PAF, with a specified resonant peak, will sound overwhelmingly similar to another. The differences will be less than is encountered in amp tone control or minor environmental factors in the room in which you are playing.

But that is my opinion, and it flies in the face of many reported very happy PU experiences to the contrary.

Chris

[ruger9]

Related question: does anyone make a mini-humbucker that fits in a humbucker space? Or, a humbucker that sounds like the old Gibson mini-hums?

[Patrick2]

>>> Would be nice if someone would take a recording spectrum analyzer and capture each pickup while constraining all the other variables as much as possible.

I wonder.

I made my first pickups around 1978. I only owned one batch of 42 ga. wire (from Magnet Wire Supply, Chatsworth, CA - funny the details you remember. Of course I could be remembering the name incorrectly.) - but that was enough to really play with many PU design ideas.

Anyway, it only takes a handful pickups to get the basic ideas of magnet type, spool shape, how much wire etc.. After that it gets very subtle, to the point of absurdity, in my opinion.

>>> They may not be better than boutique PAF's,

I do note that many happy boutique experiences are described very much in terms of the human factors, and a sense of custom and personal attention from the builder.

I do not wish to disparage the custom (or customer service, or personal attention) experience that many players report enjoying very much. It just does not hold an overwhelming appeal to me.

I have the opinion that any given fully-charged (more or less) Alnico V PAF, with a specified resonant peak, will sound overwhelmingly similar to another. The differences will be less than is encountered in amp tone control or minor environmental factors in the room in which you are playing.

But that is my opinion, and it flies in the face of many reported very happy PU experiences to the contrary.

Chris

Chris; I'm picking up a new Heritage Golden Eagle next week. It was custom built for a recording artist, who then ran into financial difficulties and couldn't buy it. I picked up a brand new, old stock Gibson humbucker from Pastore's Music Shop. Ronaldo had it in a drawer for some 35 years. It's a patent numbered variant with the number stamped into the back, (not a sticker). The original tan masking tape covering the gold plated nickel cover, had the number 13220 hand written on it. I've identified that as a bridge pup. The neck pup is a number 13119. From what I've learned through research, the pole spacing, center to center, 1st and 6th position, on older Gibson HB pups designated for arch tops was 1-13/16" . . . on the solid bodies it was 1-15/16", with the outside hole in the bobin plugged and repositioned during the molding process. The one I have is 1-15/16". So, this one probably was for a Les Paul Custom or an ES 355. I believe it has a short alnico V magnet. It clocked out at 7.1K ohm DC resistance.

I'm wondering what I can expect when I have Ren Wall put it in the new Golden Eagle.?.? Any thoughts on this?

[PTChristopher]

Hiya Patrick,

>>> I'm picking up a new Heritage Golden Eagle next week.

>>> a recording artist, who then ran into financial difficulties

If I liked to gamble I would have definitely bet on both of the above happening.

>>> [The pickup] Any thoughts on this?

Well, the spacing is a good thing. At 1 13/16" you'd be looking at sneaking it over a bit to make sure you did not lose the high E, while at 1 15/16" the spacing is far more typical for modern guitars.

Some really feel that the aging (more specifically, mild deterioration) of the magnet strength is a part of the beloved sound of older pickups.

It is always possible that a pickup was stored in a way (against other strong magnets) that caused a problem with the magnet, but I have never noticed this on a built-up pickup (as opposed to a stored bar magnet).

As I'm sure you know, DC resistance is only a usable piece of info if the bobbin and wire gauge is identical between two pickups. For example, I could use 44 gauge wire to wind a coil that had higher DC resistance, yet slightly less output and a thinner sound vs. a 42 gauge coil with lower DC resistance.

But in your case, I think it is safe to expect a modest output clear, balanced PAF.

In my opinion.

Chris

[Patrick2]

Hiya Patrick,

>>> I'm picking up a new Heritage Golden Eagle next week.

>>> a recording artist, who then ran into financial difficulties

If I liked to gamble I would have definitely bet on both of the above happening.

>>> [The pickup] Any thoughts on this?

Well, the spacing is a good thing. At 1 13/16" you'd be looking at sneaking it over a bit to make sure you did not lose the high E, while at 1 15/16" the spacing is far more typical for modern guitars.

Some really feel that the aging (more specifically, mild deterioration) of the magnet strength is a part of the beloved sound of older pickups.

It is always possible that a pickup was stored in a way (against other strong magnets) that caused a problem with the magnet, but I have never noticed this on a built-up pickup (as opposed to a stored bar magnet).

As I'm sure you know, DC resistance is only a usable piece of info if the bobbin and wire gauge is identical between two pickups. For example, I could use 44 gauge wire to wind a coil that had higher DC resistance, yet slightly less output and a thinner sound vs. a 42 gauge coil with lower DC resistance.

But in your case, I think it is safe to expect a modest output clear, balanced PAF.

In my opinion.

Chris

Thanks for the quick reply Chris. I saw this guitar sitting on a rack at the Heritage plant when I was there 2 months ago. Absolutely fell in love with it . . . (but, that seems to happen every time I see an arch top).

I was out at the plant again last week and it was still there so I cut a deal for it. They told me they would ship it out next week . . .. but, with Heritage, that might mean within the next 2 or 3 weeks. Can't wait!!!! I'll let you know how it sounds as soon as I receive it and take it out for a test ride. I really am expecting a warm wonderful tone from that old pup. The top is X braced (my personal preference) and the box is 3" X 17" dead nuts on and the bridge and base will be African ebony.

[PTChristopher]

Sounds like it will look and sound great in a room with some tile, ya know - like a bathroom with a fireplace.

Seriously, it sounds fantastic - will you post some sound?

I think that many find the tone to warm up some as a magnet ages, but in my opinion the effect is pretty minor.

My heavy-handed opinion is that the big deal with PAF's is that they optimize the bottom end. Unclogged, not thumpy. (How's that for technical?)

Then you are free to do what fingers, picks, and amps do effortlessly - control the high end response while the pickup provides the framework.

The muffled high end of fat pickups gets a lot of discussion, but think it is a clear and "articulate" bottom that is the hallmark of a fine PAF. The highs are easy once you get the lows right. This sounds counterintuitive, but is how I hear it.

In my opinion, X-bracing, especially in a big box (and these days 17 x 3 is big) leaves lots of room for voicing based on the shape of the X. A very steep X can sound close to parallel, but as the X gets broader the top can really start to get very complex, in a good way.

Looking forward to the new guit.

Chris

[Patrick2]

will you post some sound?

I'm going to have to learn how to do that. But, first I'll need to get some recording gear

but as the X gets broader the top can really start to get very complex, in a good way.

Spot on . . . as usual. This is the main reason that my Heritage Golden Eagle "Wesmo" models sound as good as they do! When Jim Deurloo was first asked to make a body with an inset neck pup and X bracing, he knew he would need to open up the X to accommodate the route. The results are remarkable. My sunset sun burst Golden Eagle has more complexities than an '82 Chateau Mouton, Rothchild. heh heh . . . must be close to 5:00. I'm already thinking about fine wine

[zigzag]

Man, that is a sweet looking guitar! Bet it sounds amazing.

[Patrick2]

Sounds like it will look and sound great in a room with some tile, ya know - like a bathroom with a fireplace.

Seriously, it sounds fantastic - will you post some sound?

I think that many find the tone to warm up some as a magnet ages, but in my opinion the effect is pretty minor.

My heavy-handed opinion is that the big deal with PAF's is that they optimize the bottom end. Unclogged, not thumpy. (How's that for technical?)

Then you are free to do what fingers, picks, and amps do effortlessly - control the high end response while the pickup provides the framework.

The muffled high end of fat pickups gets a lot of discussion, but think it is a clear and "articulate" bottom that is the hallmark of a fine PAF. The highs are easy once you get the lows right. This sounds counterintuitive, but is how I hear it.

In my opinion, X-bracing, especially in a big box (and these days 17 x 3 is big) leaves lots of room for voicing based on the shape of the X. A very steep X can sound close to parallel, but as the X gets broader the top can really start to get very complex, in a good way.

Looking forward to the new guit.

Chris

Man, that is a sweet looking guitar! Bet it sounds amazing.

Thank you! And, yes . . that's a bet you would easily win.

[Jazzchief1]

Thanks for turning me on to Pete Biltoft. Sent him an E-mail today to see what he recomends. I'm still looking. Anybody try the super 58's that come on the GB 300? Just another option on my quest. As an aside, does anybody know why certain pickups work better with rosewood fret boards?

[PTChristopher]

>>> does anybody know why certain pickups work better with rosewood fret boards?

Hey, I remember something from college: Petitio Principii

In my opinion there is no general view that some pickups are better suited to rosewood fingerboards.

I can certainly see someone coming up with a view that might point you in one direction or another on this, but man, that would be quite a reach in my opinion.

I wish you good luck in finding the replacement pickups that will get you where you want to go. I'm sure you will succeed.

Chris

[Peter C]

I will get round to changing out the neck pup in my Artcore one day, only because the stock one sounds sort of indifferent to my ears.

For a replacement, I'll definitely consider a Schaller unit. I have had them on a Heritage H150 solid body for 20 or so years and they've always sounded sweet to my ears, with good, articulate lows. Also, a recent clip posted by this forum's Mr Beaumont of his newly-acquired Heritage 575 shows just how good they can sound in a hollow body. Oh yeah, and they're inexpensive.

[Jim Soloway]

Replacing the pickups on an Artcore I'm rebuilding. Any suggestions. I mostly play old standards, but do a little jazz and blues. Anybody out there that has used the Dimarzio 211 -212 combos or Benedettos? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I've had the 211 (the EJ Custom for those who don't know the numbers) in two of my own guitars and in three more that we built for customers. They're an unusual pickup with a lot of high end clarity and not a lot of output. They're surprisingly warm and quite touch responsive but they don't have a lot of girth. I've never used on in the bridge position. Instead we paired them with something hotter in bridge. I liked the EJ but i basically stopped using it when the 36th Anniversary PAF came out. I just think it's a better pickup with just as much high end detail but warmer mids. For the money, I consider the 26th Anniversary to be the best pickup on the market and even without considering price, it's one of my personal favorites.

[marcwhy]

Ever since i was introduced to them about 10 years ago, all of my guitars have had pickups from Tom Short. Great guy -- tell him what you want, and he'll whip it up for you.
Tom Short's Guitar Pickups