Godin 5th Avenue Kingpin played acoustically

**hollywood mark** · 05-01-2012, 08:54 AM

Hi, all. This is my first post, as I'm just dipping a toe in the seemingly boundless sea of jazz guitar.

I've had a low-end Washburn archtop (HB-15) for a couple years now and am looking to upgrade a bit. I've had my eye on the Godin Kingpin and finally found a couple to try out. They sounded great plugged in, but I was disappointed at how little sound I got out of them acoustically--at least compared to my Washburn, which has a big, round sound unplugged. They are also much lighter than my Washburn. Do y'all think that's the reason for the difference? I also wonder whether string gauge might be playing a role. My Washburn has 11s on it, and I suspect the Godins were wearing 10s.

I'm beginning to think I should just stay with my Washburn for now. Any insights? Thanks.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-01-2012, 09:20 AM

The light strings have something to do with it, but the Kingpin is not an acoustic tone machine...

A couple of other thoughts:

Lightly built is usually a good sign as far as tone goes

The Kingpin actually gets a pretty decent tone with .12 gauge strings and a well fitted bridge, considering it's a small laminate box.

You want solid wood for any real acoustic tone for the most part...but a solid wood archtop is not just the acoustic equivalent of a plugged in jazz tone...it's a very specific sound...

The kingpin is a great plugged in jazz guitar...

**hollywood mark** · 05-01-2012, 09:36 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Jeff. I had thought that the Kingpin was solid -- all around. Having second thoughts now.

Anyway, I played all the hollowbodies in the store and could find none that had a nice sound unamplified. Maybe I'm expecting too much?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-01-2012, 09:57 AM

If you're playing all laminate archtops, don't expect much, particularly with the light strings a lot of manufacturers ship with...

If you are looking for a solid wood archtop on a budget, consider "The Loar." They might need a good setup and a little work when you get them, but they're made of all solid wood and sound great...You can be in a solid topped model for about 5 bills, and all solid for under 1k.

Back to the Kingpin/laminates for a minute--

If you're looking for a guitar that you're going to play plugged in mostly and a nice acoustic sound is a nice bonus, laminates are still not a bad choice...particularly because they are less prone to feedback...

**oldane** · 05-01-2012, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lightly built is usually a good sign as far as tone goes

Yes, mostly. At least as far as responsiveness and sweet tone goes. But some of the older archtops built for rhythm work in big bands was actually rather heavily built. The Strombergs were heavy guitars with thickly carved tops. They were certainly not great guitars for delicate fingerpicking, but when set up with a high action, a bit relief, medium to heavy strings and strummed vigorously with a stiff pick, they could deliver volume like no other guitar which was exactly what was needed in a big band. My Triggs Stromberg copy has some of the same main caracteristics, it is a heavy beast and it also is at its best when played forcefully like the old Strombergs.

Nowadays with sophisticated amplification, we don't really need that much volume from an acoustic guitar, so luthiers/manufacturers has been able to concentrate more on pretty sound, responsiveness and easíer playability. The guitars are more delicately built and lighter in weight, but they often also max out earlier as far as sheer acoustic volume goes than those old rhythm "cannons".

**mr. beaumont** · 05-01-2012, 10:33 AM

That's a great point oldane-- you gotta hit some of those older buggers a bit to make 'em sing--that's what they were made for, after all...

My comment on lightness was mostly directed to laminates--the best sounding laminates I've come across have been lightly built...

**hollywood mark** · 05-01-2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Yes, mostly. At least as far as responsiveness and sweet tone goes. But some of the older archtops built for rhythm work in big bands was actually rather heavily built. The Strombergs were heavy guitars with thickly carved tops. They were certainly not great guitars for delicate fingerpicking, but when set up with a high action, a bit relief, medium to heavy strings and strummed vigorously with a stiff pick, they could deliver volume like no other guitar which was exactly what was needed in a big band. My Triggs Stromberg copy has some of the same main caracteristics, it is a heavy beast and it also is at its best when played forcefully like the old Strombergs.

Nowadays with sophisticated amplification, we don't really need that much volume from an acoustic guitar, so luthiers/manufacturers has been able to concentrate more on pretty sound, responsiveness and easíer playability. The guitars are more delicately built and lighter in weight, but they often also max out earlier as far as sheer acoustic volume goes than those old rhythm "cannons".

I believe that's what Washburn might have been after with my HB-15. It's very heavy and very loud in a classic archtop way. (Every time I play it I;m reminded of the wonderful soundtrack to Woody Allen's "Midnight in Paris.")Amplified it's kind of blah, which was why I was considering the Godin or Loar LH-350. But now I see I am looking at apples and oranges. I'm not going to find one guitar that does both. Better to hang on to the Washburn and bang away on it. Then buy the Godin or Loar for a more modern jazz sound. I have read just recently, though, that the Loar does not have an adjustable truss rod. How could that be?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-01-2012, 12:22 PM

I wouldnot consider the Loar models to be a "modern sound"-- I usually relate that to something "X" braced...check out Eastman...

What the solid wood on the Loar models gives is VOLUME.

**oldane** · 05-01-2012, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by hollywood mark

But now I see I am looking at apples and oranges. I'm not going to find one guitar that does both. Better to hang on to the Washburn and bang away on it. Then buy the Godin or Loar for a more modern jazz sound.

That's the same conclusion I have come to after many years. Separate guitars for acoustic and electric playing. That way you can optimize each for its purpose.

**hollywood mark** · 05-01-2012, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I wouldnot consider the Loar models to be a "modern sound"-- I usually relate that to something "X" braced...check out Eastman...

What the solid wood on the Loar models gives is VOLUME.

I'll happily check out the Eastmans, Jeff, when I win the lottery

. On my nearing-retirement budget, I'll have to make do with something more affordable. Thanks once again, though, for the info.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-01-2012, 01:02 PM

I hear ya ma...keep an eye peeled on the 'bay...an all acoustic Eastman isn't common, but when they do pop up they're not priced too steep...

Otherwise the Loar is a good option, but yes, a different sound/aesthetic...what is your budget?

As far as hanging on to the Washburn...yeah, the least "fun" choice is probably the correct one...for now...

**hollywood mark** · 05-01-2012, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I hear ya ma...keep an eye peeled on the 'bay...an all acoustic Eastman isn't common, but when they do pop up they're not priced too steep...

Otherwise the Loar is a good option, but yes, a different sound/aesthetic...what is your budget?

As far as hanging on to the Washburn...yeah, the least "fun" choice is probably the correct one...for now...

Actually, I may have spoken too soon, Jeff. I found what I assume is an "entry-level" Eastman (AR403CE) on Ebay for $800. Not as bad as I thought. I'll start saving. Is that an OK model, or does it not properly reflect the line?

**Frank67** · 05-01-2012, 02:42 PM

I second what Jeff is saying. All of the Godin Fifth avenue models (even the ones without pickup) are, in my opinion, accoustically thin and dead sounding. Amplified is a whole different story and the Kingpins are quite nice and woody sounding archtops. The P90s were a good idea for this one I think.

I am still curious about the amplified voice of the Fifth avenue Jazz but nobody seems to have any or write a report on it. Surprisingly they already show up on ebay.

**hollywood mark** · 05-01-2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by FrankLearns

I second what Jeff is saying. All of the Godin Fifth avenue models (even the ones without pickup) are, in my opinion, accoustically thin and dead sounding. Amplified is a whole different story and the Kingpins are quite nice and woody sounding archtops. The P90s were a good idea for this one I think.

I am still curious about the amplified voice of the Fifth avenue Jazz but nobody seems to have any or write a report on it. Surprisingly they already show up on ebay.

Yes, I know what you mean. I played three of them--one without pickup--and all sounded very thin. Like bad acoustic guitars. Not at all what I've become used to with my Washburn, which I'm liking more and more as this thread develops. I liked the amp'd sound of the two 5th Avenues I played, but it didn't knock me out like I'd expected. Too much Internet hype, I fear.

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-01-2012, 03:46 PM

OK, this is not exactly an upgrade, but you might look for an old Kay or Harmony. I think the top was solid pressed, not laminate. Anyway, all the ones I have owned have a great loud tone unplugged. As you may know, most of the older ones (pre-mid-60's) did not have a truss rod and were prone to neck issues, but if you're lucky you can find one that is very playable. (Or has undergone a neck reset.) The necks are also quite a bit thicker with a more triangular profile.

The good news is that there are still a lot of them around in stores, as well as on Ebay. I bought 2 of mine for $50 and $100 each, plus I had a nice old tobacco burst Silvertone given to me by a friend; all required a little TLC and new hardware. A good playing model with good hardware should not set you back more than $300.

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-01-2012, 08:29 PM

^^^ That's what I'd do if I wanted an acoustic archtop. I'd hunt me down an old playable Sears Silvertone or Stella.

Is this cool, or what?

**Norman931** · 05-01-2012, 08:51 PM

Played one just like that a few days ago in an antique shop. Offered the guy $300 on the spot, but it wasn't for sale, as it had belonged to his father.

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

^^^ That's what I'd do if I wanted an acoustic archtop. I'd hunt me down an old playable Sears Silvertone or Stella.

Is this cool, or what?

**bborzell** · 05-02-2012, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by hollywood mark

I have read just recently, though, that the Loar does not have an adjustable truss rod. How could that be?

I don't think it can be. My Loar certainly has an adjustable truss rod.

**GodinFan** · 05-02-2012, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by FrankLearns

I second what Jeff is saying. All of the Godin Fifth avenue models (even the ones without pickup) are, in my opinion, accoustically thin and dead sounding. Amplified is a whole different story and the Kingpins are quite nice and woody sounding archtops. The P90s were a good idea for this one I think.

I am still curious about the amplified voice of the Fifth avenue Jazz but nobody seems to have any or write a report on it. Surprisingly they already show up on ebay.

An acoustic 5th Avenue makes a respectable big band rhythm guitar with a set of 13's and the action raised.

**Little Jay** · 05-02-2012, 07:28 AM

Maybe the Washburn HB-15 could profit from a pick up and electronics upgrade? You could even condsider cutting the top for a P90 or nice humbucker. The acoustic tone would suffer from that, but I doubt if it would suffer in a dramatic way.

**Little Jay** · 05-02-2012, 07:36 AM

Here's a guy that turned his HB15 into an ES150!

Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five, featuring in Hilary Alexander - Swing Guitar Blog - GEAR: What IPlay

**hollywood mark** · 05-02-2012, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Maybe the Washburn HB-15 could profit from a pick up and electronics upgrade? You could even condsider cutting the top for a P90 or nice humbucker. The acoustic tone would suffer from that, but I doubt if it would suffer in a dramatic way.

That thought has crossed my mind more than once, LJ. It's already a bit of a freak, as the guy who had it before me took off the pickguard and put the knobs--wooden ones--underneath the strings. It looks very cool and is easier to use than you'd think. Anyway, I don't think adding a P-90 would make it look any odder, although it would lose some of its vintage appearance.

**jorgemg1984** · 05-02-2012, 09:18 AM

Or a P90 with an humbucker size

https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/mai...ckup=manhattan

**hollywood mark** · 05-02-2012, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Or a P90 with an humbucker size

https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/mai...ckup=manhattan

I like it. Any idea how much these cost and whether you can get them in the States?

**oldane** · 05-02-2012, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Maybe the Washburn HB-15 could profit from a pick up and electronics upgrade? You could even condsider cutting the top for a P90 or nice humbucker. The acoustic tone would suffer from that, but I doubt if it would suffer in a dramatic way.

If cutting a hole in the top, be sure you don't cut the braces too. This would compromize the structural stability of the instrument. The top may sag and/or the neck may be pulled upwards by the string pressure.

I can tell a horror story about that. 30 years ago in a guitar shop I was shown an acoustic L5 destroyed this way. The owner had wanted a humbucker in it, but the guitar shop had refused to do the job, because the braces had to be cut away partly so only a shallow strip of brace would be left. They had explained the difference in bracing and top carving between the acoustic and the CES L5, but the owner considered it BS. He went home and made the hole himself, installed the pickup and strung up. Exactly as foreseen, the now very flimsy braces broke, the top sagged and developed a crack due to the added stress in it. The owner even had the nerve to make a warranty issue out of it, claiming that Gibson themselves made PU equipped L5CES guitars, so it ought also be OK to retrofit a PU in an acoustic model. That was of course rejected for very good reasons by the Gibson agent. Now the instrument was stading there in the shop, while the owner refused to pick it up before it was repaired at Gibsons expense. I don't know how the story ended, but it made everybodys heart bleed to see such a nice instrument mistreated in such a foolish way. I believe they showed that L5 to everyone to teach a lesson. Since then I have had a lot of respect for braces and the structural integrity of a guitar.