nut file-ing

**pingu** · 03-29-2012, 04:49 PM

Hi , anyone here reduced their nut height with files ?
playing at the 1st posn is a bit of a pain on my Ibanez (plastic nut)

would I be better off removing the nut and file-ing down the underside
I'm worried about going too far and having to build it back up again
If I filed the underside too much I could always shim

I keep seeing PTC'd points that nut height is very important
to overall set-up

(can't afford a luthier or guitar tech)

**Patrick2** · 03-29-2012, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

Hi , anyone here reduced their nut height with files ?
playing at the 1st posn is a bit of a pain on my Ibanez (plastic nut)

would I be better off removing the nut and file-ing down the underside
I'm worried about going too far and having to build it back up again
If I filed the underside too much I could always shim

I keep seeing PTC'd points that nut height is very important
to overall set-up

(can't afford a luthier or guitar tech)

If your string height is a problem at the 1st fret due to the nut, then it's a problem for the rest of the set up as well. Get it done correctly by a pro

**Spook410** · 03-29-2012, 06:28 PM

You need the right tools to do this job. This includes feeler gauges, an accurate way to measure string height (not a plastic ruler, not a tape measure), and something to cut the narrow slots. I guess there might be something other than nut files you could use but I'm not sure what. Also, it could be argued that this job requires experience that can only be gained by screwing up the first ones you do. Since you have no recourse if you mess it up, I would live with it.

**jazzbow** · 03-30-2012, 01:12 PM

Hey Pingu.... Nok! Nok!

Don't take the nut off and do any filing, you file the string slots.

This link is the way to check nut action as originally posted by PTC
Nut Action
Nut files are horribly expensive and would cost more that what a tech would charge for that specific work. Usually a set up and fret dress should also involve any nut work as part of the price.

**kris** · 03-30-2012, 02:14 PM

You can find on Youtube some info how to change guitar nuts.
I practised on plastic nuts before I work with bone.
...but after my "work" I found good guitar service.

http://www.guitarrepairbench.com/ele...ction_nut.html

**PTChristopher** · 03-30-2012, 03:15 PM

In my opinion this is a remarkably ill-advised article.

I supposed it will improve some nuts over their stock condition, by accident.

I can understand how this sort of thing happens, it is nonetheless unfortunate.

If you are new to doing your own nut, I suggest avoiding anything that suggests measuring clearance at the first fret on open strings. Clearance at the first fret is a variable subsequent (meaning it happens AFTER) result of nut height, neck relief, and bridge action.

It is remarkable that people who should know better propagate this sort of stuff.

If you are new to nut height and anyone suggests using a feeler gauge for anything but getting popcorn out from between your teeth - run to the nearest exit.

Chris

**jazzbow** · 03-30-2012, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

If you are new to nut height and anyone suggests using a feeler gauge for anything but getting popcorn out from between your teeth - run to the nearest exit.

Chris

I have been using sight as an indicator for adjusting nut action for many years, I came into some cash and bought a whole load of tools from stew mac and got the nut making kit. I tried the feeler gauge method with adding fret height+spandangle degree and-spoondadle but it just confused the tits off of me. So I just went back to sighting the gaps. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for systems for easy use and consistency but it just took me longer to do (just for the record I only did the one bone nut with feeler gauges and it turned out ok).

The link posted earlier and originally championed by PTC is the best way.

**PTChristopher** · 03-30-2012, 04:25 PM

Hi J'Bow,

Ya know, imagine if someone suggested that the height of the 4th fret should be set by capo-ing the strings at the 3rd fret then using a gauge sold to you to measure clearance above the 4th fret. Then filing the 3rd fret to the correct clearance.

Eventually (hah, or maybe not,...) it might occur to someone that this 4th fret clearance would change with neck relief or bridge height - not just 3rd fret height. And that filing the 3rd fret to set clearance above the 4th could give you some serious trouble. MAYBE the 3rd fret height should be a continuation of the heights of all the other frets including the 4th. AND that this height has nothing to do with bridge height. SO a procedure that is affected by bridge height may be a problem.

But back to the dopey thing that is actually being suggested,...

************************
EDIT: Fixed the paragraph below. I had misinterpreted a joke by Jazzbow as an actual measurement. Read his post too quickly for my slower brain.
************************

Using open string clearance over the first fret, even if you somehow consider bridge height and relief, is a remarkable thing to actually suggest. I guess it is easy to provide comfort via a tool and a number for measuring this clearance - even if this is a terrible way to work based on a faulty sense of what one is doing.

But the world seems to get along fine without this particular concept (hah, or my view of it anyway) being widely understood. Players just "know" that barre chords at the first fret are supposed to be hard to do, and the largest plain string is going to go sharp in low positions. I guess.

Anyway, I should either write this up for publication or shut up, I think. No sense in me being (even more) tedious about this.

I deleted the post yesterday because we had a remarkable situation where a person asked for absolute beginner advice on setup and nuts in one thread, then offered counsel on the same topic in another thread. I did not want to contradict, or suggest agreement.

Chris

**PTChristopher** · 03-30-2012, 04:31 PM

Anyway, I'm going to stop commenting on this on a case-by-case basis. I'll either write and illustrate something for publication (or rejection,...) or drop it.

Thanks for the give-and-take in the subject.

Chris

**Gramps** · 03-31-2012, 01:58 PM

I've used the technique that is shown in the link for years. I also have feeler guages but find if the string is just off of the first fret when fretting it between the second and third fret I'm in the ballpark.

PS. I wish I had a dollar for every time I went just a tad too low but now I can whip up a new nut in no time.

**jazzbow** · 04-01-2012, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gramps

I've used the technique that is shown in the link for years. I also have feeler guages but find if the string is just off of the first fret when fretting it between the second and third fret I'm in the ballpark.

PS. I wish I had a dollar for every time I went just a tad too low but now I can whip up a new nut in no time.

I've had low slots (

) but I pile in some bone dust into the slot and then drop thin super glue onto it. It solidifies in nano seconds and then you're good to go!

**jazzbow** · 04-01-2012, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

Hi J'Bow,
************************
EDIT: Fixed the paragraph below. I had misinterpreted a joke by Jazzbow as an actual measurement. Read his post too quickly for my slower brain.
************************
Chris

Sometimes the greatest lessons are learned with the help and understanding of others!

Don't worry about slow brains, you are in good company

And of course this language we call English can have double meanings in different contexts, when we read too quickly we take the wrong meaning as some of our forum members for whom English is a second language may not know!

For instance, is it 'Read' or 'Read' ?!?

Jazzbow : You know what makes me mad?
Son of Jazzbow : What?
Jazzbow : Changing the 'e' to an 'a' and adding a 'd'. (the room is left silent as a dust bunny rolls along the floor)

That'll confuse them!

**Kojo27** · 04-01-2012, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

If your string height is a problem at the 1st fret due to the nut, then it's a problem for the rest of the set up as well. Get it done correctly by a pro

Now Patrick - he said he couldn't afford a pro.

Did ya get the hang of making these quote boxes?

kj

**Patrick2** · 04-01-2012, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Now Patrick - he said he couldn't afford a pro.

kj

No Loren . . . he said he couldn't affort "a luthier or a guitar tech". I suggested a pro . . . . because one could certainly be a luthier or a guitar tech and not be a pro. They could be a serious hobbyist. Just need to operate at a professional level and not get paid for it . . . there-by . . it would be . . FREE to pingu! I guess it's just a matter of semantics. But, then . . . is it even a matter of semantics to argue about semantics?

As you can tell, too much time on my hands this Sunday morning (after spending a solid hour playing guitar) and feeling a little playful. Finally finished covering the Larry Carlton version of Josie and really enjoying cranking up my ES 335 during the improv. I really love Larry's chord voicings in that version. A little simpler than Steely Dan's voicings, but equally as tasty.

I haven't really tried the multi-quote again. But, I printed out your instructions and I keep them handy for the next time I need to use them. Thanks again!

**davelang** · 04-01-2012, 02:05 PM

The thing about this problem - fixing the nut - is that if you don't already have the tools for it then to gear up to do it yourself will cost you as much as paying someone else to do it.

If you're sure that it needs to be lowered (and I would judge that based on intonation vs. playing feel) then the easy cheap way to fix it would be to take the nut off and sand the flat bottom down a bit on a sanding block.

This method is not perfect, not going to fix any problems with individual slots being too high or too low and doesn't help you figure out whether it's really too low or not.

But it will lower the action at the nut! (even if it shouldn't be lowered)

dave

**Kojo27** · 04-01-2012, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

No Loren . . . he said he couldn't affort "a luthier or a guitar tech". I suggested a pro . . . . because one could certainly be a luthier or a guitar tech and not be a pro. They could be a serious hobbyist. Just need to operate at a professional level and not get paid for it . . . there-by . . it would be . . FREE to pingu! I guess it's just a matter of semantics. But, then . . . is it even a matter of semantics to argue about semantics?

Funny! (Yikes, we're hijacking the thread.)

Now, ladies and gentlemen, back to our regularly-scheduled program: PINGU needs help with the nut on his guitar....

**Gramps** · 04-01-2012, 02:33 PM

Yes, I've filled them too but am concerned that it can wear out quicker from strings sliding back and forth. If I'm charging someone I like to be sure it is done to the best of my abilities. On the other hand when my grandson decides he wants to tune his guitar down a step and a half with the sixth string dropped a whole step lower (think drop D)but wants the same tension I have no problem filling and re-filing for him when he wants it back to the original again. He doesn't pay me and I know I'll be the next one to work on it.

Originally Posted by jazzbow

I've had low slots (

) but I pile in some bone dust into the slot and then drop thin super glue onto it. It solidifies in nano seconds and then you're good to go!

**PTChristopher** · 04-01-2012, 02:41 PM

>>> the easy cheap way to fix it would be to take the nut off and sand the flat bottom down a bit on a sanding block.

Please do not do this. Really.

**kris** · 04-01-2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

>>> the easy cheap way to fix it would be to take the nut off and sand the flat bottom down a bit on a sanding block.

Please do not do this. Really.

Sure- do not do this!!!

**davelang** · 04-01-2012, 03:01 PM

It's not how I would adjust the nut on my guitar but I have the tools to do it myself and I can afford to have someone else do it for me if I don't feel like doing it myself.

There's been lots of good advice in this thread but I haven't read an explanation to the original poster re: why he shouldn't just file down the bottom of the nut given his given his stated situation and goals.

**PTChristopher** · 04-01-2012, 03:26 PM

I am sorry for butting in on this.

File away, it must be good.

**Patrick2** · 04-01-2012, 03:36 PM

OK . . . if PTChristopher is going to draw a line in the sand and apologize for suggesting how another man treats his nuts . . . then, what's this world coming to? If this guy wants to take his nuts off, file the bottom of them and then try to reattach them . . . who are we to interfere? Personally, I am very particular about who I even let touch my nuts!! The thought of having someone file the bottom is just something I'd never even consider. And, furthermore . . . what's this about having ones nuts replaced?

**PTChristopher** · 04-01-2012, 04:00 PM

Hey Patrick,

I need a bit (maybe more than a bit) of whatever you put in your coffee today for sure.

>>> if PTChristopher is going to draw a line in the sand

Indeed, uncalled for.

But seriously folks: Whatever floats someone's boat is fine by me - or should be anyway.

And I have done some wacky things to guitars when specifically asked to do so - and after warning the owner about why this is unusual.

But man, in my opinion some web forum advice is fun banter, but really not a good idea to actually try.

It would never occur to me to go on a classic car forum and start shooting from the hip with what seems to me to be good advice because I once balanced my second cousins twin carburetors using a coat hanger or something.

But maybe a home dental surgery forum might be fun,...

Really, file away at any place you want on your nut.

But it is amazing how fine a guitar can play when really set up well - and this begins at the nut.

It is also amazing how limited a setup can be when the nut is goofy. You can not fix the problems with other adjustments.

Anyway, I'm going to get serious about a draft with illustrations, pics, concepts, pitfalls, common mistakes, exceptions that work for some players, etc. - then see what happens.

All the best there Patrick - thanks for the fun response.

Chris

**kris** · 04-01-2012, 04:07 PM

When you doing something with the nut/like changing for new one/ you can do something bad with your fingerboard.You do not know what glue was used at fitting old nut.So be carefull.
Also you have to clean carefully place on the fingerboard for new or old nut with modification.

**Spook410** · 04-01-2012, 04:12 PM

I'm getting tools. I'm getting blanks. I'm moderating my expectations with knowledge that I'm not going to get it right the first time. I'll be your first customer Chris.

I do have a question about the feeler gauge. It seems it might be easier for some than eyeballing 'a hairs width' at the first fret as you hold down the second. Also the video on Stewmac shows it being used as check the make sure you don't go too deep with the files. OK.. OK.. I can wait for the official instructions.