Gitane Gypsy Jazz guitars - is high action normal?

[djelley]

I really want to learn Gypsy Jazz and have tried (and owned) several Gitane models over the last year or so. Every model from low end to the Lulo Reinhardt and John Jorgensen models have had what I consider high action.

Today I took delivery of a DG300 and really want to love it, but the action at the twelfth fret is over 1/4". The neck relief is normal and there is no way to adjust the action. Is it just me, or are they supposed to be this way?


Thanks.

[Bflat]

Hi,

The bridge can be sanded down to lower the action. These guitars are designed to have higher action for more agressive picking and strumming so don't go too low.

They are really nice guitars: enjoy.

[mr. beaumont]

You can ft a shorter bridge...but gypsy jazz guitars get a lot of tone and volume from higher action.

[fauves]

Yup that's par. All are pretty high. I saw on Django books that they sell a set of bridges 3 I think for about 50 bucks so you can swap the string height to fit your mood. The larger solid bridge is a big part of the sound of them.

That and a monster pick

[jazzbow]

I have a Le Voi macafferri which came with the standard high action, he made me some shims to make the action higher!

But alas, I am selling it as I have developed a left side numbness which restricts my fretting hand and any musical pleasure with this guitar.

I considered lowering the action but that's not what Gypsy jazz is all about.

[newsense]

The action on my Gitane DG-255 is 1/4" at the 6th string and a smidgen less on the treble side. I believe it was approximately like that straight out of the box 5 years ago. No changes to the bridge height at my hands, however I have changed string gauge a couple of times which meant that I have adjusted the relief to avoid fret buzz. However, it plays beautifully now, as it always has.

[glasstube]

gypsy jazz guitar is about having a percussive guitar quality, action should be pretty high

[Stevebol]

The action on these guitars isn't going to get as low as many would want on a typical electric but a 1/4" at the 6th or 12th fret seems a bit steep. My Gitane D-hole was used but not played much at all. I did a fret redress but I was in a hurry and did a crap job so I couldn't lower the action. I'll have to do it again.
To get the action lower( I prefer medium or even a bit on the high side) you probably need a good fret redress along with fiddling with the bridge and maybe the truss rod. Out of the box mine had a slight buzz at the 12th fret.
You gotta love the way these guitars open up sound-wise after you play them a lot.

[newsense]

The action on my Gitane DG-255 is 1/4" at the 6th string and a smidgen less on the treble side. I believe it was approximately like that straight out of the box 5 years ago. No changes to the bridge height at my hands, however I have changed string gauge a couple of times which meant that I have adjusted the relief to avoid fret buzz. However, it plays beautifully now, as it always has.

Sorry - just realised I'm guilty of a really misleading typo - that should have said '....1/8" on the 6th string' (at the 12th fret).

[oldane]

Sorry - just realised I'm guilty of a really misleading typo - that should have said '....1/8" on the 6th string' (at the 12th fret).

I think thats pretty much the standard for an acoustic guitar, and I wouldn't go lower than that. Especially not with the "correct" thinner Argentine strings. A lower action wil mean buzzes with a more vigorous playing and restricted dynamic range / max volume. I have the action set to around 3/16" (with 13-56 bronze strings) on the guitars I use for Freddie Green strumming.

One can get used to a higher action with pratice. Check out the action of Freddie Greens guitar in this clip (BTW his last recorded performance):

%??????% - ???????????

(Don't mind the question marks - just click the link. It works)

[Retroman1969]

Holy crap!!
I've heard about Freddie's high action for years, but never actually seen it up close. I had an acoustic with a broken neck joint that had lower action.
He must have been able to strangle a rhino to death with his left hand.

[djelley]

Thanks for all of the advice and info guys. I still might try a new bridge to lower the action a tiny bit, but I will adjust to the string height.

Thanks again!

[PTChristopher]

Just for laughs:

The traditional sound of these guitars comes from high amplitude, low mass.

So light strings that are hit hard and are swinging a fairly wide initial arc.

One could consider that the Maccaferri design could only handle so much string tension before it became a problem, and that this simple practical part of the picture drove some of the now-revered sound.

If one were not a fan of sticking 100% to tradition, it is possible to consider the sound pretty washboard-ish at times.

So grabbing a modern Saga DG-300, it strikes me as very practical to go to a nice set of .012 to .050 or even .052 rounds, make a lower bridge (and have the luthier hollow it quite a bit on the underside to reduce mass). Get the action down to a somewhat low range of 5/64 = 2mm, or only slightly higher (high E at the 12th fret), and note the remarkable volume and clarity these guitars can put out with such a setup.

I do not know the "Ramogiz" word for shred, but it could apply here. (maybe too obscure)

Anyway, in my opinion you could show up at the local gypsy jam with such a setup and show what a faster guitar with fuller midrange can do. Just an alternate view point.

The tech part:

Dropping the action, drops the break angle. This drops the load on the top a fair amount.

The truss rod can easily handle .012's.

Keeping the mass of the bridge down (keep the original bridge and make a new low one with plenty of hollowing from the underside) makes for a significant volume from these guitars even at less that fret-buzz crazy amplitudes.

It is an interesting alternative that in my opinion works rather well. You do need a luthier with a little Maccaferri understanding, but not a constricting view of the tradition.

Still in my opinion. Done it, sounds fine. Good even.

EDIT: A lighter touch with heavier strings usually is best with less neck relief. So consider that the new bridge will not have to be all that much lower since the optimum neck relief will also be less, which lowers the action some as a secondary effect. But do the setup in the right order:

1. - Nut
2 through 10. - No, really get the nut right; it's too high.
11. Rough relief
12. Action
13. Check and refine relief if needed
14. Refine action if needed.

Or something close to that.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Or ignore the above as way too wacky and destroying the traditional sound and feel of these fine guitars. No need to goof with tradition when it works.

Chris

[jazzbow]

Just another point, traditional Selmers should have box section rod instead of a truss rod, which some say add to the tone (walnut neck as well). In theory should take 12's. I contacted Mr Le Voi (the maker of my guitar) about dropping the saddle and stringing it with bronze 12's as I have a problem with me left hand strength but he freaked! Hmm, maybe he's way too conservative? The guitar top crease is either bent over a hot iron (pliage) or the braces are shaped and should take the strain.
An arch is a strong foundation, check out the colosseum in Rome

[Tele295]

1/4" at the 12th fret is really high, even for a gyspy guitar. It would be really hard to play leads with that

2.5-3.5mm (don't know what that is in inches) is a medium to high action for these instruments. I think I have my Gitane at 3.5mm, and other GJ players tell me it's high. However, that's the lowest I can get it and still have the round, pure tone I want.

My wife plays rhythm only on her Gitane Lulo, and I think her action is about 2.5-3mm

[Mr JDG13]

Just another point, traditional Selmers should have box section rod instead of a truss rod, which some say add to the tone (walnut neck as well). In theory should take 12's.

That's pretty much what I understood from discussing with my luthier in France who had repaired several Selmer models during is apprenticeship with his master luthier. They were initially true classical guitars (and Maccaferri hated what Django was doing with those...), so very fat neck and no truss rod, although I have not seen any modern builder do that unless per request. Those guitars were not really easy to adjust and a higher action was also a meant to avoid intense buzzing. I have been looking everywhere for heavier gypsy strings like 12s to no avail, nobody seems to make them. The bronze ones well, a priori that does seem like an heresy soundwise, but I have seen a few sold on youtube with those, so I guess some people like it that way...

[oldane]

1/4" at the 12th fret is really high, even for a gyspy guitar. It would be really hard to play leads with that

Indeed, but the OP wrote in a later post, that it was a typo. The action was 1/8", which I find average even for an acoustic archtop strung with 13-56 strings. At least I wouldn't go lower in order to avoid buzzes and strings slapping against the fretboard.

[Scolohofo]

That's pretty much what I understood from discussing with my luthier in France who had repaired several Selmer models during is apprenticeship with his master luthier. They were initially true classical guitars (and Maccaferri hated what Django was doing with those...), so very fat neck and no truss rod, although I have not seen any modern builder do that unless per request. Those guitars were not really easy to adjust and a higher action was also a meant to avoid intense buzzing. I have been looking everywhere for heavier gypsy strings like 12s to no avail, nobody seems to make them. The bronze ones well, a priori that does seem like an heresy soundwise, but I have seen a few sold on youtube with those, so I guess some people like it that way...

optima musiksaiten has 12:OPTIMA Musiksaiten

[Mr JDG13]

Thanks, man. I might try those soon then.

[Tele295]

I have been looking everywhere for heavier gypsy strings like 12s to no avail, nobody seems to make them. The bronze ones well, a priori that does seem like an heresy soundwise, but I have seen a few sold on youtube with those, so I guess some people like it that way...

There is a company called Guadalupe Custom Strings that makes a heavier (in the basses) set of loop end Gypsy Strings, ManoucheTone. I think they go down to a 49, but the top side is still 11. Since they are a custom string shop, they'll make you a set of loop end 12s if you order a half dozen sets or so. http://www.guadalupecustomstrings.com/1652.html

The strings sound OK, but they don't have the warmth or body of Argentines. on the standard 11-46 set same guages as Argentines), the G string buzzes horribly. Not so much with the heavier set.

[jazzbow]

That's pretty much what I understood from discussing with my luthier in France who had repaired several Selmer models during is apprenticeship with his master luthier. They were initially true classical guitars (and Maccaferri hated what Django was doing with those...), so very fat neck and no truss rod, although I have not seen any modern builder do that unless per request. Those guitars were not really easy to adjust and a higher action was also a meant to avoid intense buzzing. I have been looking everywhere for heavier gypsy strings like 12s to no avail, nobody seems to make them. The bronze ones well, a priori that does seem like an heresy soundwise, but I have seen a few sold on youtube with those, so I guess some people like it that way...

Check out John Le Voi's web page. He only uses box section steel rods in the necks of his guitars, truss rods are only put in on request!

He is a fantastic source of knowledge and has been making selmer style guitars since the seventies! Even his dreadnaught flat top guitars sound like maccaferri's.

I think he can make the resonator box thingy for the D hole if you want.

Search out his cats eye model.

John Le Voi Guitars - Luthier specialising in Selmer Maccaferri Style Gypsy Jazz Guitars

[jazzbow]

Yum!

[Mr JDG13]

Check out John Le Voi's web page. He only uses box section steel rods in the necks of his guitars, truss rods are only put in on request!

He is a fantastic source of knowledge and has been making selmer style guitars since the seventies! Even his dreadnaught flat top guitars sound like maccaferri's.

I think he can make the resonator box thingy for the D hole if you want.

Search out his cats eye model.

John Le Voi Guitars - Luthier specialising in Selmer Maccaferri Style Gypsy Jazz Guitars

Yep, don't know how they sound, but cat's eyes looks interesting for sure. Pretty expensive though. At least I have found interesting info on the forum today. I have seen in fact other builders proposing carbon rods, in place of the traditional aluminium rods. And thanks Tele, I'll check the strings by the way (though I am having a Favino style guitar made right now, that has only 4 braces, so I don't know how well it would behave with heavier bass strings). The resonator thing is controversial though, Dupont among others says he doesn't recommend them. Anyone has one in his guitar?

[Tele295]

Yep, don't know how they sound, but cat's eyes looks interesting for sure. Pretty expensive though. At least I have found interesting info on the forum today. I have seen in fact other builders proposing carbon rods, in place of the traditional aluminium rods. And thanks Tele, I'll check the strings by the way (though I am having a Favino style guitar made right now, that has only 4 braces, so I don't know how well it would behave with heavier bass strings). The resonator thing is controversial though, Dupont among others says he doesn't recommend them. Anyone has one in his guitar?

I don't know how the resonator would behave in a Favino-size instrument. Might be too much - they have a lot of bass already.

So tell me about your new build? I'm really taking a hard look at Favino size instruments when I upgrade from my Gitane. My friend Doug Martin has a D-hole long scale Favino that's just magic. I've played a maple, Favino-size Dell Arte Hommage that I liked a lot (most Dell Artes are too bright and crunchy for my tastes).

Paris Swing (Music Link) now has a Favino size instrument for about $600 street. However, if I'm going to upgrade, I was thinking about an AJL Gypsy Fire, long scale D-hole.




Recently, somebody suggested a Rodrigio Shopis Favino size (D'artagnan?), so that's a consideration as well.

However, I will not upgrade until I can perform (and competently solo over) every tune in the Robin Nolan Gigbook. I'm maybe 1/2 - 2/3 of the way through. The Gitane is doing just fine for me at the present. I won't be recording our next album for at least a year, or sooner if I can move a couple hundred more CDs!