Polytone Mini Teeny Brute

**Wildcat** · 02-05-2012, 04:44 PM

Hey Guys

I have a line on a Polytone Mini teeny Brute that needs repairs. I have not looked at it other than some photographs. The amp's speaker has been repaired about 12 year ago with a tear. But it appears the tear has occured again. The owner says it works when he last played it. The serial no. P - 4959.

Any thoughts on its age, 1980's and it's value?
I was thinking about offering him nothing more than $50 for it.
Also, is it a 10" speaker and what would be a suitable replacement for the original.

Thanks

Rich

**Wildcat** · 02-05-2012, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Hey Guys

I have a line on a Polytone Mini teeny Brute that needs repairs. I have not looked at it other than some photographs. The amp's speaker has been repaired about 12 year ago with a tear. But it appears the tear has occured again. The owner says it works when he last played it. The serial no. P - 4959.

Any thoughts on its age, 1980's and it's value?
I was thinking about offering him nothing more than $50 for it.
Also, is it a 10" speaker and what would be a suitable replacement for the original.

Thanks

Rich

Also I think its a 50 watt model. It has no grill. Can replacement parts be found/

**jorgemg1984** · 02-05-2012, 04:49 PM

Those old Polytones sound good - for 50$ it's a no brainer... What repairs does it need? I think you have re-cone kits for those amps. I guess an Emnincen Beta would be failry close to the Polytone Eminence OEM speaker.

**Wildcat** · 02-05-2012, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Those old Polytones sound good - for 50$ it's a no brainer... What repairs does it need? I think you have re-cone kits for those amps. I guess an Emnincen Beta would be failry close to the Polytone Eminence OEM speaker.

I appears that the amp is diss-assembled as if the owner lost interest in working on it. The only issue is the speaker tear and reassemble and get a grate or screen for the front of the amp as it did not come with one.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-05-2012, 05:08 PM

Hmm would you be able to re-assemble the amp? Maybe that way it's worth it.

**Wildcat** · 02-05-2012, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Hmm would you be able to re-assemble the amp? Maybe that way it's worth it.

Without a doubt I could re-assemble in fact this is the type of equipment I enjoy bring back to it's glory days. I did it for a 1964 Fender Bandmaster Head a few years back.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-05-2012, 05:18 PM

So you would be wonly spending on a grill cloth and the re-cone or new speaker? It seems like a good deal to me but I would wait for other opinions here on the forum.

**Wildcat** · 02-05-2012, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

So you would be wonly spending on a grill cloth and the re-cone or new speaker? It seems like a good deal to me but I would wait for other opinions here on the forum.

I would do it just for the fun. I would buy a new speaker $50-75 and the grill replacement would be a piece of cake.

I just sent an email to the owner offering $50.

**bborzell** · 02-06-2012, 12:48 AM

If you buy a new speaker, you will no longer have a Polytone amp. Might be a good sound, but it will not be what they originally sounded like.

Better option, in my view is to recone the speaker with as close to the same as original material as is available. I just did this for a Polytone 101 Bass amp I have had for decades. the repairman said he would recone it to pretty much the same same spec/materials. The result is superb.

BTW, the Polytone folks will tell you that using a higher than spec'd impedance speaker will eventually harm the electronics. I don't know if that is gospel, but reconing a speaker is a lot easier and less costly that risking harming to an amp that has precious few replacement electronic parts available for it. My amp internals have lasted nearly 40 years and sound as good as new.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-06-2012, 07:40 AM

Well it's obvious if you change the speaker the amp will sound different. Lots of people have put JBL and EV type speakers on vintage Polytones with good results. I enjoyed my Henriksen with an EV much more than with the Beta. Reconing is of course a valid option and it it's well done the speaker will be as new - and you will get the real original sound of the amp.

I have read Polytone saying that several sometimes - my guess is they want to sell their own speakers. For what I understand the issue with solid state amps is minimum impedance - which in a Polytone is usually 2 / 3 ohms on stock speakers. So if you go on a 4 ohnms / 8 ohms route you will loose some power but I don't think you will harm the amp... of course I might be wrong and you should get this checked with a valid amp tech. I also think an Eminence Beta should be fairly close to a Polytone speaker (after all it's used by Henriksen, Evans, Redstone, Raezers Edge, ...)

**Wildcat** · 02-06-2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Well it's obvious if you change the speaker the amp will sound different. Lots of people have put JBL and EV type speakers on vintage Polytones with good results. I enjoyed my Henriksen with an EV much more than with the Beta. Reconing is of course a valid option and it it's well done the speaker will be as new - and you will get the real original sound of the amp.

I have read Polytone saying that several sometimes - my guess is they want to sell their own speakers. For what I understand the issue with solid state amps is minimum impedance - which in a Polytone is usually 2 / 3 ohms on stock speakers. So if you go on a 4 ohnms / 8 ohms route you will loose some power but I don't think you will harm the amp... of course I might be wrong and you should get this checked with a valid amp tech. I also think an Eminence Beta should be fairly close to a Polytone speaker (after all it's used by Henriksen, Evans, Redstone, Raezers Edge, ...)

Thank for the wonderful information as I have been a tube amp player for some years. But I have been curious about the smaller jazz solid state amps. I had a Roland JC120 which was great and reasonable price, but just not practical for me at the time given its volume potential.

The owner has emailed me back looking for $80-$100 after I offered $50.

Rich

**Wildcat** · 02-06-2012, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by bborzell

If you buy a new speaker, you will no longer have a Polytone amp. Might be a good sound, but it will not be what they originally sounded like.

Better option, in my view is to recone the speaker with as close to the same as original material as is available. I just did this for a Polytone 101 Bass amp I have had for decades. the repairman said he would recone it to pretty much the same same spec/materials. The result is superb.

BTW, the Polytone folks will tell you that using a higher than spec'd impedance speaker will eventually harm the electronics. I don't know if that is gospel, but reconing a speaker is a lot easier and less costly that risking harming to an amp that has precious few replacement electronic parts available for it. My amp internals have lasted nearly 40 years and sound as good as new.

Thank you. What you are saying makes sense. However the speaker was reconned once and needs it again. Is that a common occurance?

**bborzell** · 02-06-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Well it's obvious if you change the speaker the amp will sound different. Lots of people have put JBL and EV type speakers on vintage Polytones with good results. I enjoyed my Henriksen with an EV much more than with the Beta. Reconing is of course a valid option and it it's well done the speaker will be as new - and you will get the real original sound of the amp.

I have read Polytone saying that several sometimes - my guess is they want to sell their own speakers. For what I understand the issue with solid state amps is minimum impedance - which in a Polytone is usually 2 / 3 ohms on stock speakers. So if you go on a 4 ohnms / 8 ohms route you will loose some power but I don't think you will harm the amp... of course I might be wrong and you should get this checked with a valid amp tech. I also think an Eminence Beta should be fairly close to a Polytone speaker (after all it's used by Henriksen, Evans, Redstone, Raezers Edge, ...)

You suggest that the OP also wait for other opinions and then you make snarky comments about said other opinions. Interesting technique.

It may not be so obvious to all that changing speakers will make the speaker sound different from the original Polytone sound. That is why I added that thought.

As for Polytone's admonition about the possibility of damage to the amp unit from using a different speaker of higher impedance, they were not trying to sell me a new speaker; only stating that whatever speaker I decide to use be of the proper impedance. And yes, 30-40 year old amp components such as those designed and manufactured by Polytone might well be sensitive enough to become adversely affected by running too long at the wrong impedance.

**bborzell** · 02-06-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Thank you. What you are saying makes sense. However the speaker was reconned once and needs it again. Is that a common occurance?

I don't believe that there is anything about the amp that would increase the likelihood of a tear in the speaker. Do you know if either "tear" occured on the seam? Glue failure and object intrusion are pretty much the only reasons for tears.

While it is true that the original speaker is not as durable as some of the more "modern" speaker materials (I have a set of monitors with Kevlar drivers), my 15" Polytone lasted over 30 years before needing attention.

My guess is that the recone that failed simply wasn't done properly. I am lucky enough to live within 50 miles of one of the old masters of speaker repair.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-06-2012, 12:36 PM

Man i didn't want to make snarky comments - I just think saying that changing a speaker on an amp will of change it's sound and it will be different from the original is kind of obvious, on any amp actually.

From what I have read you will need to recone or to buy from Polytone to get a speaker with the proper impedancw which seems to be kind of original (3 ohms I think). I have read about people using 4 ohms and 8 ohms speakers with vintage Polytones and having no issues - what kind of problem do you think it may occur with using a higher impedance than the expected? A friend of mine has changed the speaker in his Polytone (early 2000s, sonic circuit) to a Jensen and the amp sounds much better and actually works better (more headroom available). It's his only amp for 10 years now.

**bborzell** · 02-06-2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Man i didn't want to make snarky comments - I just think saying that changing a speaker on an amp will of change it's sound and it will be different from the original is kind of obvious, on any amp actually.

From what I have read you will need to recone or to buy from Polytone to get a speaker with the proper impedancw which seems to be kind of original (3 ohms I think). I have read about people using 4 ohms and 8 ohms speakers with vintage Polytones and having no issues - what kind of problem do you think it may occur with using a higher impedance than the expected? A friend of mine has changed the speaker in his Polytone (early 2000s, sonic circuit) to a Jensen and the amp sounds much better and actually works better (more headroom available). It's his only amp for 10 years now.

Higher than spec'd impedance typically becomes a problem with tube amps rather than solid state amps. However, I won't suggest that I know more about the design and structure of Polytones electronics that Polytone knows. To be sure, using a lower impedance speaker would be problematic, but the original Polytone speaker is at about as low an impedance rating as one would normally see on the market.

The physics behind how an 8 ohm speaker might damage a Polytone amp and the operating requirements that might lead to such damage are unclear to me. However, having had a conversation with the fellow who designed my Polytone amp and being told that damage is possible with higher impedance speakers, I see no practical reason to dispute or challenge his statement.

I reconed the original speaker at a price less than the cost of any of the newer replacement options. And, it sounds again like the amp that I originally bought.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-06-2012, 04:33 PM

Since I am always interested in knowing more about amps I would like to know what issue would could happen - too bad they didn't tell you. I thought with any solid state amp high impedance would only mean less power.

To get the original sound of the amp no doubt a recone is the best option - and also the cheapest. In my personal experience I liked the Henriksen with the EV and my friend's Polytone with the Jensen much more than with Beta or Polytone stock speaker.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-06-2012, 09:30 PM

That´s what I thought - more impedance means less power but less current which would be better for the amp. My jazzmaster ultralight runs at 2 ohms and I think it might be one of the causes of the recent noises it makes; I think I will run it at 4 ohms minimun in the future. I wonder why Polytone said that.

**Wildcat** · 02-07-2012, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by bborzell

I don't believe that there is anything about the amp that would increase the likelihood of a tear in the speaker. Do you know if either "tear" occured on the seam? Glue failure and object intrusion are pretty much the only reasons for tears.

While it is true that the original speaker is not as durable as some of the more "modern" speaker materials (I have a set of monitors with Kevlar drivers), my 15" Polytone lasted over 30 years before needing attention.

My guess is that the recone that failed simply wasn't done properly. I am lucky enough to live within 50 miles of one of the old masters of speaker repair.

From the bad photographs I was sent, it appears that the tear is not on the seam but between the center and the outer portion of the speaker.

The owner claims to have taken it to a fairly well known re-coning guy in the area. I will have to do some research as I try to set up a meeting time with him this weekend.

**bborzell** · 02-07-2012, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Wildcat

From the bad photographs I was sent, it appears that the tear is not on the seam but between the center and the outer portion of the speaker.

The owner claims to have taken it to a fairly well known re-coning guy in the area. I will have to do some research as I try to set up a meeting time with him this weekend.

The seam I am referring to runs from the center of the cone to the outer rim of the basket. While you cannot yet rule out a slash with a machete, from what you have described, it is still possible that the speaker suffered failure of the seam. In either case, I wouldn't be concerned that a decent recone will fail prematurely, (unless, of course, you own a machete).

**Wildcat** · 02-07-2012, 11:57 AM

My first attempt at photos here.

**bborzell** · 02-07-2012, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Wildcat

My first attempt at photos here.

Hard to tell. The dome on the speaker looks crunched. This era of Polytone had
a foam/plastic type mesh over the speaker as protection. Does this amp have that speaker cover?

Mine deteriorated over the years and I replaced the three covers (1-15 and 2-8s) with a metal grill.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...tml#post180996

**Wildcat** · 02-07-2012, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by bborzell

Hard to tell. The dome on the speaker looks crunched. This era of Polytone had
a foam/plastic type mesh over the speaker as protection. Does this amp have that speaker cover?

Mine deteriorated over the years and I replaced the three covers (1-15 and 2-8s) with a metal grill.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...tml#post180996

I agree, the dome looks crunched. This amp is starting to look like it was in a bar fight.

No the amp does not have the speaker cover. Yes I was thinking the metal grill was an option but I'm not sure what the options are for grill cloth which I can do if thats an option.

**bborzell** · 02-07-2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Wildcat

I agree, the dome looks crunched. This amp is starting to look like it was in a bar fight.

No the amp does not have the speaker cover. Yes I was thinking the metal grill was an option but I'm not sure what the options are for grill cloth which I can do if thats an option.

Pretty much any grill cloth will work, but protecting the driver from assault will require a protective screen.

I spoke to several grill cloth suppliers who all suggested going with a metal grill, unless, of course, I wanted to have the appearance of grill cloth and then I would still need some sort of acoustically neutral hard backing for protection.

The 15" driver was too exposed, in my view, so I passed on the cloth and went straight to a metal grill. The company who did mine does custom cuts and will also do rolled edges to your spec. I needed 1/2", if I recall correctly to come flush to the cabinet edge.

Let me know if you want to check out their web site.

**Wildcat** · 02-07-2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by bborzell

Pretty much any grill cloth will work, but protecting the driver from assault will require a protective screen.

I spoke to several grill cloth suppliers who all suggested going with a metal grill, unless, of course, I wanted to have the appearance of grill cloth and then I would still need some sort of acoustically neutral hard backing for protection.

The 15" driver was too exposed, in my view, so I passed on the cloth and went straight to a metal grill. The company who did mine does custom cuts and will also do rolled edges to your spec. I needed 1/2", if I recall correctly to come flush to the cabinet edge.

Let me know if you want to check out their web site.

Yes if you could give me the website as I am probably going to pull the trigger on this amp.

Just looking on line I see a few grills for this amp. Any thoughts as how they compare to what you did or how they compare to the originals?