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Well, keep in mind that the only thing worse than buying something to evaluate its sound in your own environment is trying to make that decision by way of people's recordings - audio or video - on the internet.
Originally Posted by Jazz_175
There are SO many variables - mics, technique, recording gear, gear setup, encoding, bit rate, processing, etc - that you might miss out on a great thing because one or more of those variables positioned the object of your attention in an unflattering light. Or worse, you liked something because of those external variables but hated the real deal.
bob
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11-20-2013 09:09 AM
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This is the video I was talking about
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I actually like that video a lot and hear a big difference when he kicks the pedal... it was the main reason for me to get the Barb EQ. On important thing is Jack is using the mids on 5... to get a blackface sound you need to put the mids on 0.
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I don't do much buying, but a lot of horse trading. I can afford to spend a little money when I find something I like, but I prefer to trade. I bought my DRRI used, and sold it for the price I gave for it. I bought the DRRI head new, because there were no used ones, and it would have cost more than the price of the head to convert the combo into a head configuration. The Weber speaker I bought several years ago, new, because there was no comparable used cabinet available. The Jazzmaster Ultralight I bought new, but the actual cash I paid was a couple of hundred dollars (they were a bit over $1000US at the time) because I had other gear that I could trade. Right now I've got a bass and a Fender amp head on craigslist, and if I sell them, there are a couple of items that I "need" for my music room. If I don't sell them, I'll simply wait. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
I have noticed you do a lot of buying and selling, and seem to get satisfactory results. If I may ask, do you lose a lot of money in this process? At the risk of hijacking this thread, I would wonder if you have any tips to pass on as we try to get our "dream" amps.
Or is it just a "barraja"
in which you have to accept losing a little. money with each deal?
Thanks.
The only secret is, don't buy junk. You can't get any trading value out of it, and it won't make you happy if you keep it. For myself, I only acquire gear that I think will fit my needs; but since I play guitar, harmonica, Dobro and bass and because I play in ensembles of very different sizes and musical genres, my needs change. That said, I think I've finally arrived at a stable place where I'm happy with everything I have. Maybe.
And remember, my recounting compresses several years into a sentence or paragraph.
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Back in the late 90's, there started to be a lot of hype about the blackface Fender Vibrolux's. I was lucky enough to get one for real cheap. While I think it is a nice amp for many other things, I don't necessarily feel it is a good jazz amp. For one, it's a little too loud. I used to play in an all guitar big band and everyone had 2x12" twin cabinets. Well I never cranked my vibrolux passed 4 and it was plenty loud. Next, they are just too damned expensive now. A Blackface costs about $3k and you may need rebuilding and probably new tubes. Next, they only have 10" speakers instead of 12" which tend to be more on the bright and twangy side. Last I checked, jazz tones were supposed to be mellow and on the dark side. Next, they are considerably heavy for an older gentleman to take to the gig w/o wheels, which they don't usually have. Out of all the Fender tube amps, however, they are ok for jazz. The Deluxe and the Pro break up too fast, the Twin is too big and too heavy, although I like the twins sound better for jazz, the ample headroom and 12" speakers and cheaper price outweigh the vibrolux slightly lighter weight, plus the twin often comes on wheels. Bassmans and Bandmasters are meant for 2x12" or 4x12" cabinets and have no Reverb, Princetons and vibro champs generally wont cut over drums and are considered practice amps. After much thought, I've come to the conclusion that old fender amps just weren't designed for jazz, especially blackface, when they used less wattage. For example, the silverface Twins and Pro reverbs and even Bassmans were designed with double the wattage. At that time, fender was trying to eliminate distortion at low volumes and give you more headroom. So a jazz player would be better suited with a silverface than a blackface, even.
Actually, the best Fender I like for jazz is surprisingly the Hot Rod Deluxe or the Blues Deluxe Reissue. The Hot Rod Deluxe has those 6L6 power tubes which I like best for clean, has 40 watts of power which is pefect for clean headroom on an 80watt speaker, and will give you plenty of volume to cut through your band, and tubes where it counts (in the pre and power section) and solid state where it doesn't really matter(everything else). The wattage ratio between amp and speaker is about perfect. The only thing I would do for jazz is replace the 12AX7's or at least 1-2 of them with 12AT7's. They are lower gain and lower gain preamp tube sound better for Jazz. You might also consider adding an extension cab and using the Eminence "Gentle Jazz" speaker kit, although I think the stock amplifier is fine with the Celestion speaker.
An amp I debated and debated on is the Gibson GA-50(t). You can pick these up for $1000-1500. They are steadily gaining in price. Jim Hall and Bill Frisell had one. I swore they would be the new jazz amp. Unique, with a 12" and 8 " Jensen Alnico speakers, 6L6 power tubes, and some kind of old low gain (importantly) preamp tube I am unfamiliar with, they are supposed to be "tone monsters" for jazz. However, I can see some problems here. Being 60 years old its buyer beware. Secondly, they still weight 40 lbs which isn't light. Thirdly, they are only 25 watts which again will tend to break up on higher volumes. They are probably great for recording, or for a bass/guitar duet. But I doubt they will be loud enough at a full gig in a club with a full band or an outdoor concert of any type. Lastly, Alnico speakers are very twangy. That's okay for a certain kind of jazz, bluegrass, or country, but test them out first before you buy, you may not like that particular sound.
Roland Jazz Chorus 120 have been around a long time. I still have one. I like but not love the sound. However, it still weighs about 70 lbs and is useless except for clean tone. And good luck trying to sell one!
Roland Cube 40x or 60D is a good all around amp for portability, clean tone, lessons, acoustic, rock and roll sounds, blues, mods, reverb, delay, effects, price. I got one for $125 and I really like it. The only complaint I have is that 60 which sounds the best, is 38 lbs, a tad too heavy, and the 40x which has a 10" speaker is better for me at 40 watts. If you can get one used, these amps are worth their weight in gold due to price, portability, tone, headroom, volume, versatility. The only complaint I have is that may Roland 60D speaker is lacking in bass and sounds like a tin can on certain notes. I believe the speaker may not be broken in completely. I could always replace the speaker...
Lastly, the amp that I play now. This is my final conclusion for jazz amps after much research. I play a Quilter Pro200 head with a homemade cabinet (pine, black tolex) with a discontinued 12" 100 watt Jensen Neo speaker and an optional 8" Celestion 100 watt speaker. I just got this amp 2 days ago. But I am certain I will be using it for a long time. The Quilter head is amazing. With all that wattage, your tone is crystal clear. You can run an XLR microphone on the 100 watt channel 1 and play guitar on channel 2(good for open mike night performers and jazz guitar/vocal duets). Its got a ton of features-reverb, tremolo, etc. The head itself weighs 4lbs, comes in a duffle bag. The 12" homemade cabinet with the Neo speaker isn't twangy, sounds like I'm told vintage Fender speakers, and has great bass response, actually great full spectrum response. The 8" speaker I'm waiting for had great reviews, and with the cab only weighs 10 lbs, compared to the 20lbs 12" cab. Still in any combination, or altogether, this thing is much lighter and plus you carry it in multiple pieces which makes the load somewhat easier to manage. So you got a lesson to teach? Take the 8". Got a gig, take the 12". Playing with a singer? Take both. And it's price is competitive and cheaper than Vintage Fender Vibrolux and Mesa-Boogies. And you don't have to retube or blackface mod anything! This is probably going to be the last amp I purchase. I am extremely happy with it, especially for Jazz. I believe, even though solid state, no especially because it's solid state, it tears those old tube amps a new one. Cheers!
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I've recently had the joy of playing through a Princeton Reverb (in 30 years I've managed to never play through one). I thoroughly enjoyed it for the way I like to play and the tone I want coming from it.
Last edited by barrymclark; 06-29-2014 at 03:40 PM.
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Big Polytone fan here!!!
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The best amp is the amp I will actually use.
It so much up to personal taste - and practical considerations. If it sounds pleasing and is manageable in terms of practical handling, then for me it's the best amp.
The best sounding amp I have never owned is a Twin Reverb. Gorgeous sound, the best there is, but too heavy and big to carry up and down the stairs - especially now with my low back pain and knee osteoarthrosis.
Through many years I used an old Evans JE FET500 (I think that was the model name), which finally broke down beyond repair. Though not as heavy as a Twin Reverb, it was still heavy and as I grew older I took it less and less out of the house.
For the last couple of years I have used a Redstone cabinet with either an AI head coupled with some kind of EQ or a Mambo head. It works well and is much lighter than the Evans was.
Very recently I have acquired a Mambo 8 Wedge. I bought it to bring with me to our small summer cottage where we will stay a lot more now that I'm retired. But despite the small speaker, it sounds surprisingly good "out of the box" even with all three controls set at 12 o'clock. No extra EQ pedal to rig up. Very light and small, can be taken everywhere. With the wedge shape it's unnecessary to bring an amp stand to tilt it. It's rugged. I can just plug in and play. It could well end up being my "best amp".
Disclaimer: The above is, of course, an expression of my my utter laziness. (I thought I'd mention it, before somebody else does).
Last edited by oldane; 07-05-2014 at 05:15 AM.
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I have 4 Polytones, an Ampeg, a whole s#%t ton of Fenders, and a Lab Series L5. The Polytones get the nod on jazz gigs only because the L5 is too heavy. Love them both. The tweed Deluxe sounds best for Blue Note jazz.
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I am playing the Lab Series tonight. My L5 has had the baffleboard replaced and now sports a 15" JBL D-130 speaker, in place of two CTS 12" speakers. This amp sounds terrific for jazz. The reverb is nice. The built-in optical compressor is a real winner. It is pretty easy to dial in a "fender-y" amp tone, using the "frequency" and "multifilter" knobs. Essentially, though, it is difficult to dial in a bad tone with this amp. The amp is easily as loud as a Twin Reverb. However, it is almost as heavy. [Thus, the tendency to keep taking the Polytone amp out to gigs.] Cheers to the late Bob Moog for his excellent design and build quality on the Lab Series amplifiers.
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I really like my Quilter Aviator Twin 10. Not as boomy in the low end as a Fender and the tops are a bit easier to reign back if needed. More headroom than I'd realistically ever need for jazz playing.
My Peavey Session 400 (1976) is a great jazz amp too, but unlike the Quilter, it's very heavy.
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My old L5 has been sitting in my garage for for a couple of decades. You have inspired me to finally try to get it working again. It really is a good sounding amp. Originally Posted by Greentone
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I used to collect Ampeg amps - all sorts of 50s and 60s combos from the Everett Hull days, helmet-head amps from the Unimusic and Magnavox generations. They were dirt cheap and easy to fix. And they sound great for jazz, blues, rock, whatever. I've found a new home for the V-4 stack and am selling off a few combos - a spare GU-12, a Jet, a Super Echo Twin, maybe one or two others. The rest continue to amuse me, which is their purpose.
The only one that really is not suitable for jazz is the VT-40 (4x10 combo, topmounted controls, very front, left) - it's really a rock & blues amp, IMO. I learned how to play electric guitar using this very amp, so it will stick around as well.
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IMHO, also pure conjecture, is that the Twin is not a good amp for jazz despite it being widely used. It's so damn loud that you can't put the volume past about 2 on a club date without overpowering everyone else in the band, and at that level it doesn't warm up and start to fatten up. A Pro Reverb (45 W into 2 x 12) is IMHO a much better choice for a good jazz (or blues) tone at the club volume level. Even lower wattage tube amps work better than a Twin IME, such as a Princeton or a Deluxe Reverb. Originally Posted by Joe Carlson
My tube amp these days is a Mission Amps 5E3 kit that I built into a head and run through a Raezer's Edge 1 x 12 cab. I think the 5E3 is like 12-15W and is more than loud enough to play with trumpet, sax, drums and electric bass. My other amp is a Clarus 2r with an ART TubeMP Studio in the effects loop, which is really helpful in de-sterilizing the Clarus. That one has better tone shaping options than the 5E3, but the full tube sound is very seductive...
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Yes Cunamara, a Twin can be overkill in small clubs, but they sound very nice at low volume too! (IMHO)
All that power under your fingers feels so nice..... Of course you'll want to have a clean tone, if any dirt - even a little hair - is desired a Twin is a bad choice indeed.Last edited by Little Jay; 07-09-2014 at 03:44 AM.
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I used to use my Mesa Maverick with an L5CT, not the best but what I had. When I switched to a Super 400
I started using my 61 Concert..Brown Fender 4x10 and it is the best sound yet however, very narrow power range where there was punch, and not breaking and blowing up and heavy and too large.
I get almost as nice of a sound with my 95 Vibro King but with a few blown out lumbar disks, only for home play.
Now I am using a Hendricksen 112 ER and it is a good, reliable and not heavy go to amp.
I am going to experiment with a 66 Pro Reverb which I think will be good but still too heavy. It is almost the same as a Super Reverb blackface which I once had but it was also too large and heavier than the Concert.
With that amp and other Blackface Fenders yo can patch the two channels together and have multiple tone,, volume and bright switches to tailor the sound.
The Vibro King and the Hendricksen work well without much dialing..both good punch, sustain, and clarity as well as great tone.
I have played through and old Polytone with the Super 400 and it had wonderful tone and response..at least for that guitar.
Old large brown Fenders seem to do really well but limited to volume range.
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Things evolve. I am currently playing a Fender bass in a small combo, backing up singers, and I play through a Mesa/Boogie Walkabout head into a pair of Genz-Benz 10T speakers. My guitar player uses my DRRI head/Weber California Ceramic 15 or a recent purchase, a '59 Bassman LTD at rehearsal. He uses a Gibson ES-335 and we find that either of the two Fenders provides a variety of tones, from rock to jazz (we have an idiosyncratic song list designed to showcase our vocalists, from '30s through '40s and including a couple of '50s songs as well as one from 1961 and one from 1972). At gigs he uses an silverface Super Reverb, and that works fine.
Personally, I like the Fenders -- I seem to prefer the sound of larger cone area (1x15 or 4x10) over 1x12 configurations...although my Jazzmaster Ultralight ain't going nowhere.
Here we are at an outdoor event in March:
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I just got a Fender Concert from the 80s. Has an incredibly creamy, bluesy tone. Have tried many Fenders, but for blues and slightly (!) crunched tones, this one is outstanding.
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Eddie, Originally Posted by EddieLastra
Do you still have and use the Rivera Jazz Suprema 15? If you do, what are your thoughts on it now after all these years?
Thanks!
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I like a Raezer's edge Cabinet with either an Acoustic Image head or a Polytone Head for mainstream or Gypsy Jazz. For Western Swing or Blues, I do like a Fender Tube Amp. For Urban gigs where portability is important, the AER Compact 60 rules.
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I saw Adam Rogers and he was playing - good grief - a vox AC30. When he was playing through it was an excellent jazz amp. When I came and used it in the jam session after, not so much ;-)
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Anyway, for a uber clean jazz tone I think the Henriksen amps are really excellent. I prefer them to the Polytones I have tried.
Anyone tried a Mark Bass amp with a guitar? I tried one (the little cube) with my guitar once and it was seriously clean and punchy.
For a more electric, tubey sound - any advice is appreciated....
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IMHO, there's no better way to choose than to trying as many amps as you can with your own guitar.
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Acoustic Image is great amp for jazz boxes.
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I have tried a lot of amps to get the sound that I like, and leave my Twin Reverb at home due to it being too heavy and too loud for the venues I play at, and my 25R Frontman can actually work for what I do. However, I just bought a Fender Rumble bass amp, 100 watts with a 12" speaker.
I was very surprised how this amp gives great jazz sounds. I put my pedal board in front before buying it...simple board with compressor, dirt, delay, and reverb...and the sound was great with Strats, Teles, and Les Pauls, which are what I use for jazz. When you push the "Vintage" button, the amp gets dark, almost instant jazz sound with very little needed tweaking of the Tone knob on the guitar. The Gain channel gives me all the dirt I ever use for jazz or blues.
The amp is at my buddy's house where we rehearse and keep my gigging gear. I am going to pick up another reverb pedal, delay pedal, and compressor just for this amp. Check them out...I may get blasted for this, but at 22lbs, after playing this amp, I think the main difference between the Rumble amps and some of those "Jazz" amps like the Henriksens, etc, is just the money, because the sound is equally as good. Ok, at least to my "29 years in Special Operations/Intelligence and millions of rounds fired" ears...lol.
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