Why a wound G and why flatwounds.

[WhoisLevang]

I have played flatwounds (13 to 56) on a solid body and done blues/rock/ jazz influenced music. Coming from the blues side of things more than anything (took some classical, might have a 15 minute set if I put it together :-) I mentally want a solid G. I can bend a wound G, but it's so much work to get a whole step bend that I would rather a solid string. I put a 24 on my new guitar and I can bend it that whole step. ( I know, most jazzers don't bend much, but I want to be one who does. Even Johnny Smith bent a note once or twice... Coryell did it more than a couple of times from what I've heard.)
SOooooo...
Can some of you give me the chapter and verse on flats and why? I changed the flats off of my new guitar to rounds, then had to increase gauge size on the lower 3 and still I'm getting more string rattle than I want. I am already leaning towards going back to the flats, but with the new "Foley" bridge and a solid G for my third.
I am still stuck with all those blues riffs I spent years learning and personalizing, so of course that's my fall back position.

How many blues bass players does it take to screw in a light bulb?
..........
One!...... four....... five..... One!.... four.... five....

[JakeAcci]

I'm not sure I understand - seems like you know what set up you like and you know what you want to play and how your style works with your set up. What's the question?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I'm confused, too, but I'll just interview myself.

Q: Why do you prefer a wound G string?
A: I like heavier gauges (13 or 14), so a plain G would be pretty chunky! Even with lighter gauges I think wound Gs intonate better and balance better (both volume and tone) with the other strings. I'm not much of a bender; that seems to be the main motivation for getting a plain G.

Q: Why do you prefer flat-wounds?
A: Like string gauge, it depends on the guitar, but I like the smooth feel and less squeak. Some folks say they sound deader, but I like that sound, whatever you call it.

As always, use your ears and come to your own conclusions.

[WhoisLevang]

Hey Jake,
Since I am not much of a jazz guitarist yet, I am seeking the thoughts of you who have played jazz for a long time and the reason they like flats and wound G strings. I may be looking for answers that are already here, but other than string noise, I would like to know your reasons, opinions, observations, etc. Why you prefer flatwounds. Mr. Beaumont (Jeff) gave me a little input in a PM, but I am hoping to learn more.
Thank you for helping me clarify the question.
ATB

[JakeAcci]

For what it's worth, up until a year ago I was playing a strat w 11s as my main axe, on jazz gigs (albeit not that many.) I used a wound G on that guitar just because it balanced the string volume a little better (the plain G was too loud.)

Now on my archtop I have a wound G more out of tradition than anything else, it also makes the whole set sound thicker. I use 11 roundwounds, I might like to go heavier for a bigger sound but I have nerve issues that affect my left hand and fingers so I try to make things easier on myself.

[mr. beaumont]

I find that a wound G intonates much better up the neck. I also like a stiffer feel, so my fingers aren't inadvertently pushing notes out of tune when I reach for stretchy chords.

For the record, bending of a full step or more is NOT part of my style for the most part (though I will use half step bends and vibrato frequently)

As for why flatwounds, I like them on an electric guitar...softer feel, nostring noise, and less "sponginess."

I do not currently use flatwounds on any of my guitars that have a pleasing acoustic tone...I may go back and forth in the future depending on how I'm using the guitar...

[coolvinny]

I like that I get more tactile response from wound strings. Even back when I was heavy into blues and was bending a lot, I still used a wound-G.

(I think there is a technique to bending...some people simply straighten their fingers, but somewhere along the way I learned to rotate my hand to make the bend happen; when I do that, my fingers are like the end of a tool rather than the tool itself)

[jmstritt]

I might swing and miss here on what you are asking but here goes...

1. Wound 3rd.

Once the string gets to a certain guage it is better for it to be wound to reinforce the string and help it stay in tune. You will see wound 3rds on anything 12s or bigger regardless of if the set is roundwound or flatwound. Some sets of roundwound 12s will give you the option of plain or wound 3rd.

2. Why flatwounds?

There are three main reasons that people use flatwounds...
A: Reduced string noise.
B: Smooth feel.
C: Darker/Warmer jazz tone.

If those things are important to you, than you should definitely use flats, if not then don't bother!

Sometimes you need to try a few different sets, and string guages to find what works best with each guitar.

There is a 3rd option that hasn't been mentioned. For lack of a better term I call these strings hybrid roundwounds. These are roundwound strings made of pure nickel wrap that are designed to yield reduced finger noise. Thomastik makes a version called the Bebop string, and Sadowsky has a signature Jimmy Bruno set that is actually polished like a flatwound string, but is in fact roundwound.

FWIW, I just started using Sadowsky strings, and I like them quite a bit.

[WhoisLevang]

Thanks you all for the input.
jmstritt said;
"Sometimes you need to try a few different sets, and string guages to find what works best with each guitar."
This is exactly what I'm going through now. I thought I would want heavy round wounds on my new guitar. I am now leaning towards getting a set of flats and putting back on it. I haven't tried any of the "half wound" or other type of strings, but I do not want to sacrifice the sweet action of this guitar (having to raise it) to accommodate the rounds. I think (am hoping) the tone I want may come with installing the Foley bone archtop bridge. ( I think it should fit right on the existing rosewood base, so except for having the string notches cut, it's an easy mod. I could cut the notches too, but... I'd rather have the tech do it.)
For what it's worth, with the round wounds on it, I can get HUGE acoustic volume from the guitar, but I also get the "rattle" and not quite the tone I want acoustically. ( HUGE being just a small part of my dynamic range.....LOL! ) I want more projection when picking near the end of the neck, as opposed to closer to the bridge. Did that make sense? Any road;
Thank you all!
ATB

[mr. beaumont]

Do you cut notches on those bone saddled archtop bridges? I wonder if it's meant to be more like a flat top bridge?

And seriously, not trying to beat a dead horse, but keep your packaging for that bridge...bone often means brightness, and the upper mids on an archtop can already be a bit shrill...I know they make 'em, but there might be a reason you don't really see anybody using a bone saddle on an archtop.

[WhoisLevang]

Hi Jeff,
Yes, it needs notches just like the rosewoods. They are shallow, and I'm almost leaning towards doing it myself, BUT... it will be better if a tech cuts them. Some of the older bone saddles on archies have been more like a non compensated bone saddle on a flat top and they might not have been notched at all, but I'm pretty sure the Foley type should have slight notching. Again... If it were a hundred dollar Harmony, I would do it myself. I did get the stupid foam out from under my bridge. :-) (with the help of the wife!)

[backliner]

I like the FEEL of flatwounds. They're fun to glide around on with chords.

Depends on the guitar whether or not I like the tone (plugged it: I always like their tone unplugged).

If a guitar has a wooden bridge sometimes the bass strings get pretty thuddy if I roll back the tone any with the tone pot. And many compensated wooden bridges are compensated for a wound G string.

I usually prefer a plain G because besides jazz we also play a variety of music, and sometimes on say, a song like "You Don't Know Me" (Ray Charles) I might want to do a country-ish faux steel-guitar whole step "G" bend, which a wound G string won't accomodate.

But the other day I wanted to go to a heavier gauge nickel string on my Gretsch because the trebles were sounding tinny for jazz, and the only set I had kicking around were some Thomastik-Infeld "George Benson" flatwounds.

So I put them on and for some reason they work really well with the single coil pickups and heavy syncrosonic bridge on that guitar. The G is wound so I had to recalibrate the intonation and reset the pickup polepieces under the G string, but no biggie. So far so good.

I may use a different guitar if I think I'll be needing a plain G for bending much, for the next little while.

Many times in the past I have quickly taken flatwounds back off of some guitars because of balance problems and lack of any highs from the wound strings, but they seem to be working good on the Gretsch Country Club guitar I have them on right now with that heavy bridge they put on them.

And I was reminded of how I like their feel.

[WhoisLevang]

I know that bend! LOL! I am pretty sure I am going to end up with my bottom 3 as flats on this guitar. It's either that or raise the action and I don't want to do that. I guess I just play another guitar if I want to get "twangy".
Thanks for the feedback!

[Roosto]

Everybody thinks differently. One of the things that drew me to flatwounds was the flatwound third which gives me the cut-off choke sound I want when I bend. You can hear it all over the place with Chuck Berry and early Harrison.

[Bosko]

All flatwounds are not the same. I like the TI Jazz Swing - 12's on my archtop. BTW - they last a long time.

You might want to check out TI Bebops (not flats) - wound G only on 13s and 14s.

[WhoisLevang]

Thank you all for the input. For now, I have ended up with a set of 13-56 flats with a solid 24 as the G. I also purchased a Foley bonetop bridge and had it notched, then had a set up done on the guitar. As it came, the action was set a little low. When I get something I feel worth uploading going, I will record the acoustic sound and upload it so you can hear it.
Thanks again!
Randy

[Sacco]

I can confirm, the real difference is in the fact the plain G are more flexible thus you need to be more careful while fretting that one.

I'm using Half Wound 11s on one of my guitars (awesome BTW) that have plain G, and for example on 7th chords with root on the 6th string, the 3rd of the chord lays on the G string and now I need to be extra careful with that one.

I discovered the best is to fret in the center between one fret and the next, not at the edge if you need to fret hard as in a 7th chord using the thumb.

Tone wise is about the same.

[Little Jay]

I remember the first time I put a set of flatwounds with wound G on my first jazz guitar (an Epiphone Sheraton). Felt like coming home, so I never went back. I now even put them on my Strats and Tele.

[Nate Miller]

myself, I want a wound G because the way I play the 3rds and 7ths go on the G and D strings, so I want them to be similar in tone.

as for flatwounds, that's not universal. I played round wound heavy gauge strings on my jazz box since I was a teenager. I liked the Dean Markley jazz strings

of course these days I'm liking the LaBella jazz tapes, so that's sort of like a flatwound. Tapewound anyway

So if you like flatwounds, go for it, just don't think it is a requirement because its not. Lots of guys play round wounds, too

when I was a young guy, the fashion was to have a heavy set of round wound strings, but to get an individual high E so you could have custom gauge like a .14 E

I never heard anybody even mention flat wounds back then because that is what country western players used. Maybe growing up in Texas instilled that bias, I really don't know, but I never heard of flatwounds being the only viable jazz string until I started hanging around here.

so flatwounds are definitely not required

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I'm confused, too, but I'll just interview myself.

Q: Why do you prefer a wound G string?
A: I like heavier gauges (13 or 14), so a plain G would be pretty chunky! Even with lighter gauges I think wound Gs intonate better and balance better (both volume and tone) with the other strings. I'm not much of a bender; that seems to be the main motivation for getting a plain G.

Q: Why do you prefer flat-wounds?
A: Like string gauge, it depends on the guitar, but I like the smooth feel and less squeak. Some folks say they sound deader, but I like that sound, whatever you call it.

As always, use your ears and come to your own conclusions.

I have recollection of writing this. I'm also not that smart these days.

[christianm77]

I actually find it quite difficult to play on a modern set of .11's having trained myself to play on guitars with a wound third. The lack of tension is actually off-putting to me. (My jazz string choice isn't much heavier on the E, and I often use round-wounds, but the wound 3rd makes all the difference.)

.9's I can't actually play at all.

It's what you are used to. Strings have got lighter in general. In the 30's a wound second was not unheard of, back before amplifiers. In general archtops need a heavier string to drive the top - in essence they are still amplified acoustic guitars. Obviously once you get to solids and semi-hollow guitars, this is no longer necessary.

Flats are a bit out of fashion, but they give a different tone a bit more clanky or thunky than the rounds. Flats through overdrive is the John Scofield sound! Also string squeak bothers a lot of people.

Not aa good choice for acoustic instruments though, despite guitar shops wierd proclivities for sticking flat wounds on every frickin' archtop whether it has a pickup or not. Arrrgghh!

[christianm77]

when I was a young guy, the fashion was to have a heavy set of round wound strings, but to get an individual high E so you could have custom gauge like a .14 E

I was doing a .12 set with a .15 high E at one point. I think Vic Juris does this.

I think it works well with a low action. You need the heavy strings to compensate.

[Nate Miller]

I was doing a .12 set with a .15 high E at one point. I think Vic Juris does this.

I think it works well with a low action. You need the heavy strings to compensate.

that's exactly the sort of thing we were doing.

It was all part of being a proper jazz monger. You didn't buy strings "off the rack". We all had our custom gauges that we liked. I remember even making up a set buying individual strings. But usually I gave the guy working the counter a break and just bought a set of heavies and an extra string which I'd use for my E.


but the idea was that more material made better tone. Hard picks, heavy gauges, ...all that

[pingu]

I remember the first time I put a set of flatwounds with wound G on my first jazz guitar (an Epiphone Sheraton). Felt like coming home, so I never went back. I now even put them on my Strats and Tele.

I felt like that too , I could never play the guitar
In tune till that point ...
I have clumsey hands and would push the guitar
Out of tune with all those micro bends etc

[aspiring dirty gp]

I used the Thomastik Bebop series on my Gibson Howard Roberts Custom, which really made it come alive. While the .012" on top set worked best for me, that set came with an unwound .020" third string which was very "boingy". So a much more experienced cat I played with at the time pointed this out and even supplied me with wound thirds since the original string sounded annoying. But they were not the quality of Thomastiks and required frequent replacement. The Thomastiks on the other hand were very long lasting. I won't say how long but I would eventually replace a set out of feeling guilty about it.

I do not know if they have gone to a wound third for that set but I think they should have.

Di Addario makes "semi-flatwounds" for acoustic guitars but I haven't tried them out yet.

Regards, -adgp-