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This weekend I got my archtop back from being set up. I have a wonderful luthier that I use 90% of the time, problem is he usually has a 2-3 month turnaround and I need the guitar for holiday gigs. This luthier charges $70 for a set up. So I took the guitar to the shop that I taught at some years ago. The guy that owns the store is a very good tech and more than qualified to do a good job. He asks how soon I would like to have it back, I say a couple weeks? He agrees. Well, I go to pickup the guitar yesterday, the bill comes to $120! I ask why in the world is the bill so high? Of course the owner isn't there, and some zit faced teenager tells me, "Well that is what it costs, because you got a 'pro' setup." My natural question was, "What the hell is a 'pro' setup? Does this mean since I'm a working musician I have to pay more?" Apparently it is a "better" set up. To my way of thinking, a set up is a set up, either the guitar plays well or it doesn't! I was just really shocked since the luthier that I usually go to charges $70 and the guy at a guitar shop charges well over $100.
Having said all of that, the guitar does play well and the intonation is good, so I am satisfied with the work, but just shellshocked by the price!
My question is, did I pay a reasonable price, or get took?
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11-21-2011 10:56 AM
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My luthier has a fixed price for a setup although it really varies from guitar to guitar... some are ready in 2 hours - other need much more time. But he always charges the same. I know he charges me low prices because I have been a client for 15 years - maybe that's what happened with you, your usual luthier charges you a "old costumer" price...
Prices here are 75€ for a setup. You can get cheaper but at your own risk.
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Wow. I guess I'm getting a good deal! My tech will dress the frets, lightly oil the fingerboard, adjust the truss rod, set the action, and do the intonation with a big Conn Strobo Tuner for $40. We agree on a time for me to bring it in, and he does it while I watch - maybe takes an hour - and consults with me while he does it. He talks a blue streak while he works, and it sometimes seems like he's not paying close enough attention to what he's doing, but he knows what I like and always does a great job.
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What work was actually done as part of the setup for this particular guitar? The reason I ask is that "setup" gets defined different ways by different people. What is probably the technically correct definition of setup is something I do myself and I would never consider having a luthier do it for me...unless there were also some things to be done at the same time that would properly fall into the definition of repair.
Originally Posted by jmstritt
But I would also suggest that a proper price would be almost entirely dependent on the local economy and the cost of doing business...you would expect the cost of floor space to vary several hundred percent between Manhattan and Bottineau, North Dakota, and the cost to hire a zit faced teenager at minimum wage varies widely from state to state...that all has to be factored in to what you have to pay for the same job in two different places.
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Sounds like a lot of money to me. A setup isn't rocket science; if you have a bit of time and patience, you could do it yourself. Tweeking a truss rod, playing with the bridge position and height, and perhaps shaving the nut a bit don't sound like advanced pro services that merit $120 price tag.
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I should add that I used to do most of this myself - and still do some of it periodically - but he does it much better than I do. (I'm good with turning screws, but not so good at cutting nut slots and filing fret ends or even soldering.)
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Maybe I should just learn to do this stuff for myself. 4 guitars, one set up a year, I could save myself a couple hundred bucks. That is if I don't completely destroy all of my guitars! ;-)
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If by setup, you mean cleaning/oiling the fretboard, putting on a new set of strings, checking/adjusting action height and intonation, on rare occasions adjusting the truss rod a little, and making sure all the screws are in place and tight, then yeah...it's something you can easily do. Originally Posted by jmstritt
If you ever gig with a clarinet player, you might have noticed that he/she has to do almost the equivalent of a setup on a guitar every evening when the clarinet comes out of its case and is assembled for the gig.
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Ok, so I am right to feel a little bit screwed that I paid $120 bucks for this? Not really a big deal, but for all that money, he put cheap Ernie Ball strings. For $120 I should have at least gotten D'Addarios... LOL . Originally Posted by cjm
If by setup, you mean cleaning/oiling the fretboard, putting on a new set of strings, checking/adjusting action height and intonation, on rare occasions adjusting the truss rod a little, and making sure all the screws are in place and tight, then yeah...it's something you can easily do.
If you ever gig with a clarinet player, you might have noticed that he/she has to do almost the equivalent of a setup on a guitar every evening when the clarinet comes out of its case and is assembled for the gig.
Yeah, I have played with clarient players before and they certainly have to do quite a bit to go from, "In the case," to ,"Ready for the bandstand."
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While I do suggest it is a job to do yourself, I'm not necessarily agreeing the price paid was excessive. Originally Posted by jmstritt
On the one hand, you know a guy who would have done it for $70.00. But odds are he runs a small repair shop with little or no retail square footage to pay for and he probably doesn't pay a zit faced teenager to cover things while he's out. He also cannot do a simple setup with a turnaround time of less than 2~3 months.
On the other, you had the work done for $120.00 at a place you used to teach. Sounds like a retail guitar shop with more floor space to pay for, an inventory flooring program to curtail each month, hired staff (even it was just a zit faced kid), and so on. But more importantly, he could do the job for you within the time frame you wanted it done.
I would wager they're not getting rich doing $120.00 setups and that the difference in price reflects a difference in overhead.
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I pay $50 excluding strings to a VERY high end luthier (guy actually makes classical guitars for a living).
I haven't sent him a guitar with a locking trem (not sure if he'd want more, but it'd be worth it).
For clarity, this includes changing the strings, cleaning the guitar, intonation, action adjustment, etc.. this does not include any fretwork.
I consistently get the guitars back in outstanding shape -- he's done some really great work for me over the years too including changing pickups, re-finishing guitars, etc...
I guess I'm lucky!
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Did you pay too much? Dunno.. The bigger question is why doesnt the tech provide a bill of what was done? All my customers get a breakdown of what was done, how long it took and what it cost (at that point they say Wow.. and are usually happy with the price. Which means customers who come back and word of mouth advertising)
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Good evening, jmstritt... Originally Posted by jmstritt
I would suggest that it would be normal to agree beforehand on both the degree of work to be done, and the final price. As has been mentionned, 'set-up' can imply quite different notions (it may include a neck reset in some extreme cases...); the quality of strings to be used would be part of the equation. If you're happy with the instrument in the condition in which it was returned, then you're not doing so bad, but the price can vary wildly from workshop to workshop. Ask for an estimate next time, and list the points that require attention..?
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Thanks everybody for the responses. I had considered that the price would reflect the quick turnaround, and yes since this person has a retail establishment he has higher overhead. Of course, the egg is on my face for not clearly establishing what I expected to be done and a price beforehand. I thought that since this was my old boss and somebody I trusted he wouldn't try to take me to the cleaners.
I suppose the thing that really irritated me was being shocked by the price, and then instead of detailing everything that was done what it cost etc, like SamBooka said. I had some teenage kid tell me that basically that's what it costs, because that's what it costs. When I asked the difference between a regular set up and a "pro" set up the kid didn't have a clue.
All in all, I am happy with how the guitar plays, and I got it back quickly, but I still feel like I got the raw end of this deal.
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As has been said here in prior posts, there are plain vanilla set ups . . . then there are set ups which will also include some additional work, other than what's provided in a "plain vanilla" $70 set up. Often times, a guitar tech will do this additional work without first getting authorization for the additional charges. That's inappropriate . . but not something I would consider to be unethical or larcenous. As was also mentioned, you should have asked for and received a detailed invoice for the work performed.
But, going further . . you said the tech put a set of "cheap Ernie Ball strings on it" and you expected better. You took your guitar in to a tech for a set up and didn't specifiy what type string you wanted on it? Sounds like you weren't very specific with him either.
On a final note . . I wrestled with whether or not I should mention this . . and seeing as how I haven't yet been an ass hole with anyone today . .. about anything . . . I figured what the heck?? I'll do so here. So here goes;; I learned a saying a long time ago, from a Swiss business associate. He once told me . . . "as you shout to the mountain . . . that is how it will come back to you". So then, maybe this "zit faced kid" as you identified him, realized you perceived him to be just a "zit face kid" . . . and hammered your price ticket accordingly???
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Hey! Hey! I LIKE Ernie Ball nickle round wounds! Originally Posted by Patrick2
I feel they represent value received for dollar spent at least equal to that provided by Bob's Big Boy, and that's saying something!
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Still, I would call and ask to speak with the owner, and ask what was done, saying that $120 is considerably higher than most setups. If he doesn't have any good reason for the higher charge, then try to diplomatically let him know that he may have lost a customer for life. He may refund some of it. Originally Posted by jmstritt
At least you'd know exactly what he did.
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Well I have had a chance to speak with the owner. When I asked about the price for the setup, he told me that a "pro" set up is basically a set up on anything other than a basic strat or tele. Apparently since my guitar has a floating wood bridge that is more difficult to intonate, and apparently he needed to make additional adjustmenst to the truss rod, and dress the frets. In other words, if you have a strat, tele, or les paul you get the $80 dollar set up, if you have an archtop or a guitar that has a floyd rose tremolo on it you get the $120 set up because it apparently takes longer in the shop. As far as the strings go, I have been buying strings at this store for the past 8 years (2 of which I worked there), it is a small shop, the owner almost always checks me out at the cash register. And when I come in and spend an ungodly amount of money for a set up, I get the cheapest strings that he stocks. I don't have a bias against Ernie Ball strings, I just don't like the fact that he took my guitar and strung it up with the cheapest strings he stocks.
At any rate, now the guitar does play very nicely and should be good to go for another 3000 miles. The lesson that I have learned from this is that I should have stuck with the luthier that I had been using and just played a different guitar during the down time.
It is like the saying goes, between quality, price, and time you can have 2. I got a quality set up done relatively quickly and paid accordingly.
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As a customer, I would not request a partial refund in this situation. Originally Posted by AcornHouse
If I were the shop owner, I would not provide a partial refund.
The work done was satisfactory.
As guitar players, we expect people to pay to hear us. We don't offer refunds if we show up and play the gig.
The difference in cost between the two examples given is less than the $50.00 difference in price. The guy charging only $70.00 charges extra for strings, and even a set of "cheap Ernie Balls" is worth $10.00.
So now, the difference is only $40.00.
The guy charging $70.00 is shorting the customer on service. He works by himself and cannot get to a setup job in under two months. His business is badly understaffed relative to the amount of work he has, and in this case, customer expectations of timely service.
The shop charging only $40.00 more for labor, is staffed adequately to perform the work in a timely manner. If the job takes two hours, he pays the "zit faced kid" an average minimum wage of about $8.00 an hour to cover the front door and the phones so that he, himself, can work on guitars without interruption. The two hours wages, plus employer contributions to Social Security, Workman's Comp, etc., means he had to spend an additional $25.00 just to be able to work on guitars and get them back to the customers in reasonable time.
So the real difference is only about $15.00 when all is taken into account, and it is hardly a rip off.
It is sort of like oats. Good clean oats sell for one price, but they can be had for a lot less after they've been run through a horse. In this case, the 2~3 month wait is the analog of buying oats after the horse processes them.
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jmstritt.Hi-thought you'd like to know that just had my Peerless"New York" archtop set-up by a local luthier and repairman-cost £40 inc tax.No he's not a back street merchant.He is a respected guitar maker and is the only guy to be allowed to repair top end models from U.S.A. here in U.K. In fact the companies will only let you use him.
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It's been said before - setup can mean different things. If the setup involved dressing the frets or adjusting the nut, then $120 doesn't sound that excessive, depending where you live.
Personally I always ask about pricing beforehand.
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Truss rod and fret dressing, notwithstanding, saying that a floating wooden bridge takes more time to intonate is just hooey! Unless you are carving a new bridge, you are only checking the intonation on the two E strings, and the only adjustment is to push it forwards or backwards, maybe with a little angle. It doesn't even require any tools. A TOM bridge, you're tuning each string. Originally Posted by jmstritt
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lololololololololo While that may be true of oats and horses. . . it's most certainly not the case with Kopi Luwak coffee beans that have been consumed by tree cats/monkeys . . . run through their system . . . passed out, then roasted and turned into coffee. Originally Posted by cjm
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With regard to this coffee, some of us are working to bring certain coffee merchants before an international tribunal for crimes against humanity. Originally Posted by Patrick2
As to the rest, I didn't read anywhere where it was said the tech did more work than requested as part of a setup.
It did cost more, but after the cost of strings (which is an extra expense at the low cost shop) is subtracted from the bill, the extra $40 cost can be attributed to running a business that is capable of doing a job in a timely fashion. That means higher labor costs.
As an alleged non businessman
, I also don't think price comparisons between different regions of the United States and with locations in different countries are even relevant. Local economies vary greatly. I can buy a house for $150,000 in one town in one state, and a few hundred miles away, the equivalent house will cost $600,000 (or it did before the economy tanked in 2008). So, a $120 setup, a $90 setup and a $50 setup may all be effectively the same price for the same work.
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"I beg ta diffa sir" . . . (again, Tombstone, Doc Holiday/Val Kilmer) Originally Posted by cjm
With regard to this coffee, some of us are working to bring certain coffee merchants before an international tribunal for crimes against humanity.
As to the rest, I didn't read anywhere where it was said the tech did more work than requested as part of a setup.
It did cost more, but after the cost of strings (which is an extra expense at the low cost shop) is subtracted from the bill, the extra $40 cost can be attributed to running a business that is capable of doing a job in a timely fashion. That means higher labor costs.
As an alleged non businessman, I also don't think price comparisons between different regions of the United States and with locations in different countries are even relevant. Local economies vary greatly. I can buy a house for $150,000 in one town in one state, and a few hundred miles away, the equivalent house will cost $600,000 (or it did before the economy tanked in 2008). So, a $120 setup, a $90 setup and a $50 setup may all be effectively the same price for the same work.
in post number 18, jmstritt indicated that the owner told him it needed "additional truss rod adjustment and fret dressing". While truss rod adjustment, any amount of it, should be included as part of a plain vanilla set up . . . fret dressing definitely would, and should represent additional costs . . . which should first be authorized, or at least explained when the guitar is picked up and paid for. Also, I do agree with the OP that quality, price and time are key factors to be considered. But, it always needs to be confirmed up front. If the OP dropped of his guitar and said "I need it done right and I need it back fast" . . then the shop said, "well, I can do that and here's what it's going to cost you" . . . I'm sure the OP would have said "OK, do it". and he wouldn't have felt as though he got "the raw end of this deal". It's all just a matter of good communications.
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