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Hi,
I have a Fender Princeton Reverb Amp (1977) and plays a Gibson ES175
What are the best settings for the Princeton to get the best Wes Montgomery sound?
(...and yes I play with my Thumb)
My Amp settings now are::
Volume= max Treble=5 Bass=4 Reverb=6 Speed=2 Intensity=3
Any tips or suggestions to change my settings...
Regards
Clavan
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10-12-2011 01:52 AM
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According to your settings list, do you usually keep the the tremolo on ?
I'm not sure this would help to Get Wes tone.
Beside this, maybe try to reduce both treble and bass to get a more midrange tone and see if this helps.
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To my ears, it's not any specific amp and amp setting but the way of playing his guitar which gave Wes' "sound" its caracteristics.
Originally Posted by tuxtux
Wes used a number of amps over the years - among them Fenders and a Standel. He was never fully happy with any of them. He kept experimenting and reportedly drove the Fender people nuts. According to his wife, he literally had a room in their house full of amps collecting dust. His tone with his own instruments also changed over the years (very dark on some of the older albums, somewhat brigther later on).
On some albums he reportedly used borrowed instruments. For a recording session in LA he is said to have borrowed an ES125 from Barney Kessel, and the ES175 he used for "The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery" is also said to have been borrowed (some say from Kenny Burrell). The sound on these two records is different (brighter and with more buzz and string slap) from when he used his own L5.
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Just work on finding a "tuxtux" sound that you like.
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+1 This! Originally Posted by marcwhy
If you like Wes' playing style and his music . . . just practice emulating that. As marcwhy said above, you should always work on your own individual sound . . . or you will never be you. After you've gotten an idea of what Wes was doing and how .. . then work on developing your own style . . if you don't already have one . . but incorporate some of the things that Wes did. If you continue to strive for Wes' sound, and then you emulate his technique . . . you will never be perceived as . . well, . . you. You will always just be another Wes "wanabie"
Here's a tip for you . . . if I may be so bold to offer one . . . listen to some of the less contemporary recording by Henry Johnson. Henry did a lot of "smooth jazz" shit that I wouldn't give $.02 for. But, he also did some really good straight ahead jazz stuff that is just marvelous. While Henry was developing as an artist, he covered enough of Wes' stuff, that if he wanted to, he could perform some of the iconic Wes songs and if you closed your eyes you would swear that it was Wes himself playing. But, Henry has developed his own style. And, although you can clearly hear Wes' influence in his technique and his phraseology and yes, even his sound/tone . . . he has changed enough of it that his playing is clearly him . . . and not a cloned effort of Wes Montgomery. The only advice you should be taking from anyone regarding the settings on your amp is this . . . . . play with the knobs and continue to experiment until you have a sound that you love and a sound that YOU want to be identified with. Who know?? You might even find a sound that you like better than which ever sound it was from Wes that you were looking for . . . . because . . . as was said earlier . . . Wes had more than one sound.Last edited by Patrick2; 10-14-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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I'm a big time Wes fanatic. I have found that using heavy flatwound strings in Wes' gauges is what gave my guitar (L5 CES) that big, full sound that Wes had. You can hit them hard and they have that percussive quality that I heard from Wes. Big City Strings sells a custom Labella set that is based on Wes' strings:
LaBella Electric and Flatwound Guitar Strings at BigCityString.com
The set and gauges are: L20PWM Custom 14 18 25w 35w 45w 58w
They are not for the faint of heart, but now I find other string sets to be too wimpy sounding. I don't think amp settings matter much, as Wes' amps and their tone qualities changed so much.
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I usually set my thumb to "7"
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Yes, those are the gauges. Wes used to play Gibson Hi-Fi nickel Flatwounds. I my youth in the beginning of the1970s, I managed to buy three boxes of them for next to nothing in a local guitar shop. They had been collecting dust in the shop for years. That was when everybody wanted slinky strings, and fat flatwounds didn't sell at all. The dealer thought I was crazy and asked what on earth I would use those steel wires for. BTW, the quality of those Gibson Hi-Fi strings was not always the best, and sometimes I had to open two sets to get a full useful set. The quality of todays Thomastik or D'Addario strings (and likely also other brands) is higher and much more consistent. Originally Posted by Bebop Tom
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I read somewhere on the net a story by the owner of Standel amps that Wes's amp was (sic) "modded to within a hair of blowing up". I don't know exactly what they did but it had something to do with making the amp respond "instantly". I know the board was epoxy coated and they had to work it off to get in to make changes. I got the feeling the owner would not have done this for anyone BUT Wes.
FWIW, I LOVE Wes but I've never cared for his tone. I don't hate it, but I wouldn't care to emulate it. Tone I HATE would be Joe Pass 's Virtuoso, anything I've ever hear by Scofield, and Mike Stern's chorus ad nauseum on his Standards disc.
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I have and use a PRRI alot. You really just need to take the time and tweak until it feels just right to you. But here's a few tweaks I would suggest are: Originally Posted by tuxtux
- Lowering your reverb a bit. For me, anything above 3 is too much.
- Do you really need the volume maxed? Try lowering it to 5 and then you can up your guitar's volume knob some.
- I usually start with both the bass and treble knobs at 4. Then I play a bit and adjust to the room. But I'm typically not outside 3-5 on either. But soom rooms do need more adjusting.
Last edited by monkmiles; 04-05-2014 at 04:25 PM.
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+1 Originally Posted by whiskey02
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Well this may be a dumb and naive thought, but here goes...
I realize that HB pickups are passive but i have always thought that if you turn up the guitar volume vs the amp you get more of a warm overdriven sound. In other words, guitar 9/amp 3 is warmer than guitar 3/amp 9. I have always played my guitars at 9 o'clock with a little room to increase volume if necessary, but never at 3 o'clock.
Any thoughts?
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I do the opposite --get nearly all of the volume from the amp, set the guitar volume to a di minimis, nominal level--I find it to be a warmer sound--Henriksen and Fender Twin are the amps of choice. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Personally, I love Wes, have ALL his records, but never cared for his tone and attack he got with the thumb--too dark
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WOW!! This sounds exactly like I would have written it myself. I agree on all counts. Also Pat Martino's tribute to Wes Montgomery album. So muddy I couldn't focus on Pat's lines . . . which are usually kind of boring anyway. I would throw some of Grant Green's recordings in there as horrible tone as well. Most specifically the time when he was playing a semi hollow. Originally Posted by whiskey02
The difference with Wes was, he made so much music . .. I never even thought of focusing on his tone. Who cared?? Similarly with Lenny Breau. Who cared what Lenny's tone sounded like?? I didn't. Talmage Farlow. (only we people from New Jersey are allowed to refer to him as Talmage . . all the rest of you . . . or, should I say "youz guys" have to call him . . . Tal.) Tal's tone wasn't the best either. Also, his technique was more often than not . . . . sporadic?? But holy jeez!! The man made incomparable music. I still scratch my head in amazement when I listen to some of Tal's attacks and his lead into an improv. Trying to count off his time was insane. He must have driven the other players nuts. Tal was THE man!!!!
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I have a SFPR.
Volume 3
Treble 4.5
Bass 3
Reverb 4
Trem speed/intensity at lowest
End of thread.
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Thanks you all ;-)
Regards
Clavan
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I use similar settings. Reverb on 3. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I have a SFPR.
Volume 3
Treble 4.5
Bass 3
Reverb 4
Trem speed/intensity at lowest
End of thread.
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I take exception to the grant green comment...
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How do you guys feel about your tone affecting your playing?
I like a somewhat brighter, more open tone to listen to, especially for long open chords, but I feel the need to roll off treble if I want to play fast single note lines, as I feel the tonal response of most amps is too slow with too much treble.... just doesn't feel right. I don't know if that makes any sense, but for that reason I can relate to the muddy Pat' and Wes' tones.... it just 'feels' better playing fast with a muddy tone, so it's a compromise between feel and sound.
For this reason I think some jazz guitarists like playing with lot of overdrive (Stern, Scofield, Gambale), because it also gives a very different response and feel.
I also find a lot of amps are not 'directly' enough: they sound nice on their own, but just feel 'to slow' in responding (don't know how to describe that better).
Do you guys recognize that?
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That's OK with me Sambooka. You certainly may take exception if you like. But, what I expressed was meant to be more of an opinion than a statement of fact based upon expertise. I could have been more clear about that. As always, tone/sound is a very personal and subjective thing. I actually also loved Grant Green's playing and found some of his tone to be quite good. But, I also found some of it to be quite bad . . to my ears. Originally Posted by SamBooka
I take exception to the grant green comment...
I actually opened the passenger side window of my SUV and threw the Pat Martino Wes Montgomery tribute CD out the window like a frisbee while driving on an interstate at 80 mph. (I checked first to make sure there was no other car on my right). The muddyness of his tone, along with his boring endless eighth note runs was far more than I could tolerate. Again . . . my personal opinion . . I don't mean to offend any of you Pat Martino lovers.
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Dude, I almost spit out my coffee reading that! Did you really throw it out the car window?! That's hilarious! I agree about the tone and mix of the Martino Remembering Wes album. I was so excited about it too when it came out. I love his playing as usual, but it doesn't sound good tonally. I asked him about it on his forum thread he had going for a while (maybe still does) and he did respond saying he was going for the same tone/feel of the days of Wes. But, like you, I don't think he got it. But perhaps the recording engineer or producer deserves some of the blame as well. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Yeah . . . really threw it out the window. And for the same reasons you mentioned. I was so looking forward to it, then it was such a disappointment. I really don't accept Martino's explanation to you. During the final mix and mastering of the recording . . . both Pat Martino, the recording engineer and the producer all heard the same play back monitors. What they settled on for a final mix was just unacceptable and should never have been released for distribution. Originally Posted by martinopass
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You know, maybe it's a matter of feeling too exposed. Originally Posted by Little Jay
The other day I was walking down the street when a young lady popped out of a little boutique wearing what appeared to be a quite expensive dress and fashionable heels. But it was a bit tight and tended to ride up, or it felt that way to her, because she couldn't cover much ground grabbing at her hem and constantly pulling it down...teetering on the heels because she was so distracted by the feeling that she had to cover her hind end by re-arranging everything every couple of steps.
Obviously just a kid, and probably her folks would have given her a bit of tongue lashing if they had seen the get-up she was wearing...but at any rate it gave me a chuckle. I've raised too many kids, I guess.
There's an analogy to be made with tone. Rolling off treble and getting a muddy tone is sort of the equivalent of a young gal tugging her skirt back down. If it's a bit more treble -- and every note very distinct -- it is sort of like having your butt hanging out there for the whole world to see and maybe giggle at. Probably not the effect one hopes for as a guitarist (nor perhaps the effect a young woman intends when squeezing into something that's maybe just a tad too...well whatever).
But with jazz guitar, I think maybe it's all about taking risks and hanging your butt out there for all to see -- "warts and all."
Eeewww.
Still, timidity and an unwillingness to take risk leads to CDs being tossed out the car window on the freeway.
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That PM Wes album was a real bummer. I have listened to plenty of Wes and I think that the big difference tonally between Wes and Pat Martino trying to sound like Wes is that Wes used a relatively bright amp, but because he used the thumb there was a less crisp/bright attack from the guitar creating a precieved roll off in treble. Pat Martino it sounds like just rolled off of the treble from his amp making a muddy tone. By using EQ to approximate something that is part of someone's technique it make the sound dull and lifeless.
I was very excited for the album, but like some others here, I never was able to get into it. I did like Full House, but for the most part I found the lines kind of boring as well.
Off Topic--> I tend to prefer the older Pat Martino stuff like East!, El Hombre, Footprints, etc. His new stuff (Like past 5 or 10 years) seems to have the muddy tone/ fast but boring lines thing going on.
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Brilliant!!! Originally Posted by cjm
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