Archtop Care

[Double 07]

What can I use that's 100% natural for oiling the fretboard of my archtops?

[merritt stone]

Fingerboard wood?

Lemon oil is probably the most common. Also, lots of companies make some sort of 'fretboard conditioner' that work too.

[RoyaleT]

Raw linseed oil is my choice.

[benjazzman82]

i use lemon oil. be carful not to over oil though. Can cause warping.....

[marcwhy]

This is nice: http://www.professorgreens.com/

[Patrick2]

This is a subject that has been bantered around since forever. I recently had some conversation with a very well known and highly regarded luthier. I took my newly acquired (brand new) Gibson Wes Montgomery to Steve Hayes of Steve's Studio in Colonia NJ. The Wesmo came standard with the ABR1 bridge. I hate an ABR1 bridge on an arch top. Steve cut me in a new ebony bridge saddle on the existing Gibson bridge base with the little propellers inlayed, that I would never change out. He did me a real favor and did it whiile I waited .. . as Steve is always backed up due to his impeccable reputation. He asked if I wanted him to "go over the guitar completely". I responded . . . "is that a trick question??" So, off he went. He filed down the nut to appropriate proportions, tweeked the truss rod, tightened the machine tuning heads . . . which were all somewhat loose, adjusted the height of the pup. GREAT set up by a true pro!!!!Before I could stop him, he was applying some sort of a finger board conditioner. When I went over to his bench and looked at the can. .. it was a MinWax product. He said that it is more of a sealer/hardener than an oil. He also said he STRONGLY advises against any "oil" on ebony or rose wood. His feelings are that in time, oil will soften the wood . . making it . . . spongy. Then rather than enhancing the tonal response . . the softer wood "absorbs" and buffers the string vibrations. Where as the "hardened" wood does a better job of projecting and enhancing tonal response. Who am I to question a guy like Steve Hayes??? But, I just don't know if I'm quite on board with that. I also rely on Ronaldo Orlandoni of Pastore's Music in Union City NJ. He's been my personal luthier since 1971. Ronaldo is some 25 years older than Steve . . he is from a town in Italy where 80% of the employed work force is dedicated to the art, skill and skill of making stringed instruments and accordians. He apprenticed there some 55 years ago before he came to the USA. He always treats all of my guitars with non pertroleum based natural oils, on ever string change.. . . . (yeah . . I bring my guitars to a luthier for string changes and I don't want to hear any s*** about it either. I was excoriated for stating as much on a different guitar forum).

I do notice a difference now on the finger board of the Wesmo, as compared to all of my other arch tops. The tone seems to have a "snappier" response. Not so sure I like or want that. The wood also has more of a sheen to it now and less of a natural ebony wood look to it. I KNOW I don't like that. I'm going to have to wait until that stuff wears off of the ebony. Because, as a sealer, it will now repel any natural oil I try to treat the ebony with. I talked to a couple of other jazzers that Steve works with. They say they love the stuff Steve uses and would never change away from it.

What do you guys think????

[oldane]

Like it has been suggested, Lemon oil is commonly used. Don't overdo it - not more than once a year. Woodwind bore oil also works fine and may be easier to get at in musical instruments shops. I actually played clarinet years ago and still has a half full bottle, so that's what I have used. Raw linseed oil works too (like it does for woodwind instruments), but the smell of it is not at all artistically stimulating. DON'T EVER use linseed oil with siccatives added - it hardens like warnish / tung oil. Personally, I wouldn't use linseed oil.

Rosewood fretboards are less prone to crack than ebony. It is debated whether rosewood needs any oiling at all.

I must admit, that I rarely remember to oil my fretboards regularly (years between oilings), and so far (45 years of playing) I have had no fretboard cracks. Maybe that also has something to do with the vapor content of the air - I live in a temperate climate with a good deal of of moisture and rain. Oiling may be more necessary in very dry climate.

[stevedenver]

well i disagree with patricks luthier

fingerboards , like all wood, are subject to humidity changes-
to compensate for this, one uses moderate oil on non fininshed open pored wood-rosewood, ebony, walnut, etc

i agree that over oiling can adversely effect the wood, as well as the instrument in some instances-like getting oil into unprotected wood, glued areas such as bridge to top, and into finish checking cracks

i live in Coloardo-a pretty dry place-my feeling would be different if i lived in , say , new orleans or houston
i have built guitars and lutes-but am no master

i have, however the experience of about 44 years in using oils on my martin and gibsons etc

i have used lemon oil-it works fine
i have used fret doctor-its much heavier and longer lasting-darkens a great deal too-in the right aplication it is a good product

my favorite is bore oil-
heres why
it cheap, its available at many band and orcehstra sotres, its light and penetrates fast and leaves far less residue than heavier oils

raw linseed oil is OK-its a rather heavy duty oil imho-and very oily unless you wipe it off-it is unpleasant and inelegant in that it smells strongly

i would never use anything that seals or dries to a 'hard finish' ie tung oil, danish oil, linseed oil which isnt raw, and others-because it changes the feel and look of the wood, and it not only would keep moisture in (to some extent) but moisture out-simply, if you look at museum pieces, and 99.9% of insturments -fingerboards are not sealed, nor are bridges-if sealing was needed or wanted-thats what laquer if for-and some builders have indeed sealed bridges and fingerboards-on finger boards the issue will be wear, as well as moisture staying on the top of the board rather than being absorbed and then evaporated-

i get patricks luthier's reasoning-but i dont agree with his means-otherwise we should all bake our guitars for a crispy sound-(just being stupid) -oiling a board lightly in order to prevent cracking is unlikely to really deaden the sound-or discernably-

oil, as i understand it, simply slows the moisture changes in wood-so you dont get rapid absoption or loss-and this helps to prevent cracking
oiling also slightly swells the wood-so fret ends remain more or less flush with the board-dry boards shrink and the frets dont-then you get sharp ends-

i oil lightly 1-2 times a year-baiscally when i change strings -i let oil sit for about 5-10 minutes, clean off any build up and wipe it off completely-re-string-oil can loosen glued in fret markers-not a big deal-its only happened once, and i strongly suspect gibson didnt glue it in too well at the start-easily fixed with a drop of ACC

i pay attention to open end grain, say on a marin bridge with its curves , or the end of a board -thats where the most changes can take place due to the greater amount of exposed grain-i apply oil with a q tip carefully where there is a glued joint-a little wont hurt but you dont want so much that it can work in and soften glue or unfinished wood-this is why a light oiling and wipe off avoids these issues

btw over oiling open tuner gears can also cause problems, ie the oil seeps into the tuning peg hole and enters the wood

keeping these potential pitfalls in mind, its easy to do it right

the only other things i do for instruments and especially archtops is to protect them from top pressure especially-ie a blow to the top of the case or instrument, and wipe/polish from time to time with a good polish-this prevents build up of body acids from perspiration and perhaps cluoding of the finish (nitro) over time-dont use silicon -its not harmful but it never seems to come clean completely-it leaves a very thin protective film, which i dont like at all-and avoid extremes in temperature and sunlight

[Patrick2]

Like it has been suggested, Lemon oil is commonly used. Don't overdo it - not more than once a year. Woodwind bore oil also works fine and may be easier to get at in musical instruments shops. I actually played clarinet years ago and still has a half full bottle, so that's what I have used. Raw linseed oil works too (like it does for woodwind instruments), but the smell of it is not at all artistically stimulating. DON'T EVER use linseed oil with siccatives added - it hardens like warnish / tung oil. Personally, I wouldn't use linseed oil.

Rosewood fretboards are less prone to crack than ebony. It is debated whether rosewood needs any oiling at all.

I must admit, that I rarely remember to oil my fretboards regularly (years between oilings), and so far (45 years of playing) I have had no fretboard cracks. Maybe that also has something to do with the vapor content of the air - I live in a temperate climate with a good deal of of moisture and rain. Oiling may be more necessary in very dry climate.

Humidity levels are irrelevant to how fret boards lose their oil content. When wood dries out . . . dehydrates . . looses water content . . it needs to be rehydrated with moisture, as in water vapor, as in humidity. Oil, has no volatility, it won't evaporate unless it has petrolem distillates in it. Even then, only those petro distillates will vaporize. I particularly don't like lemon oil, because it is a derivative of . . . . . well . . . lemons! A citrus based oil with a content of d-limonene. Some will now ask . . "then why do so many companies produce and sell tons of lemon oil furniture polish?" A great question! I'm in the process of trying to find out if my concerns about d-limonene are more pertinent to orange based citrus oils than those of lemons. I do know, that orange based d-limonene, in high enough concentrations will burn the skin off of your hands. In greater dilutions with water, it is an extremely aggressive cleaner/degreaser. To your point about no problems for decades without treating finger boards . . . some theorize that all a finger board needs are the natural oils and emollients transfered from the fingers during playing. Probably some truth the that also.

[Patrick2]

well i disagree with patricks luthier

fingerboards , like all wood, are subject to humidity changes-
to compensate for this, one uses moderate oil on non fininshed open pored wood-rosewood, ebony, walnut, etc

i agree that over oiling can adversely effect the wood, as well as the instrument in some instances-like getting oil into unprotected wood, glued areas such as bridge to top, and into finish checking cracks

i live in Coloardo-a pretty dry place-my feeling would be different if i lived in , say , new orleans or houston
i have built guitars and lutes-but am no master

i have, however the experience of about 44 years in using oils on my martin and gibsons etc

i have used lemon oil-it works fine
i have used fret doctor-its much heavier and longer lasting-darkens a great deal too-in the right aplication it is a good product

my favorite is bore oil-
heres why
it cheap, its available at many band and orcehstra sotres, its light and penetrates fast and leaves far less residue than heavier oils

raw linseed oil is OK-its a rather heavy duty oil imho-and very oily unless you wipe it off-it is unpleasant and inelegant in that it smells strongly

i would never use anything that seals or dries to a 'hard finish' ie tung oil, danish oil, linseed oil which isnt raw, and others-because it changes the feel and look of the wood, and it not only would keep moisture in (to some extent) but moisture out-simply, if you look at museum pieces, and 99.9% of insturments -fingerboards are not sealed, nor are bridges-if sealing was needed or wanted-thats what laquer if for-and some builders have indeed sealed bridges and fingerboards-on finger boards the issue will be wear, as well as moisture staying on the top of the board rather than being absorbed and then evaporated-

i get patricks luthier's reasoning-but i dont agree with his means-otherwise we should all bake our guitars for a crispy sound-(just being stupid) -oiling a board lightly in order to prevent cracking is unlikely to really deaden the sound-or discernably-

oil, as i understand it, simply slows the moisture changes in wood-so you dont get rapid absoption or loss-and this helps to prevent cracking
oiling also slightly swells the wood-so fret ends remain more or less flush with the board-dry boards shrink and the frets dont-then you get sharp ends-

i oil lightly 1-2 times a year-baiscally when i change strings -i let oil sit for about 5-10 minutes, clean off any build up and wipe it off completely-re-string-oil can loosen glued in fret markers-not a big deal-its only happened once, and i strongly suspect gibson didnt glue it in too well at the start-easily fixed with a drop of ACC

i pay attention to open end grain, say on a marin bridge with its curves , or the end of a board -thats where the most changes can take place due to the greater amount of exposed grain-i apply oil with a q tip carefully where there is a glued joint-a little wont hurt but you dont want so much that it can work in and soften glue or unfinished wood-this is why a light oiling and wipe off avoids these issues

btw over oiling open tuner gears can also cause problems, ie the oil seeps into the tuning peg hole and enters the wood

keeping these potential pitfalls in mind, its easy to do it right

the only other things i do for instruments and especially archtops is to protect them from top pressure especially-ie a blow to the top of the case or instrument, and wipe/polish from time to time with a good polish-this prevents build up of body acids from perspiration and perhaps cluoding of the finish (nitro) over time-dont use silicon -its not harmful but it never seems to come clean completely-it leaves a very thin protective film, which i dont like at all-and avoid extremes in temperature and sunlight

Yep . . . I definitely agree with all you said. But, I think I misled you when I said that Steve believes in "sealing" the fret board. The word sealing is often used two ways . . . correctly and incorrectly. You understood it in its correct definition, in that you took it as akin to a topical coating . . such as a varnish. Industries also use the term "sealing" when using impregnators. Am impregnator will not act as a topical coating as still allows the wood to breath . . . somewhat. It does not totally close off and seal the porousity of wood . . or stone for that matter. I will call Steve Hayes later today to find out exactly which MinWax product he uses and get further clarification on his theory. What ever it is that he uses . . . . I don't like it and will probably not use it again.

[stevedenver]

well patrick ill be interested-
and it good to know it was a penetrant

youll just have to play that old Wesmo until the ebony wears down a bit...LOL

i agree with the lemon oil thing you explained..luckily though, there must not be much in the furniture polish -
all i can attest to is that after a couple of decades of use and not knowing of alternatives ...my martin is fine-no ill effects at all

back when i started playing, about 1967 and in to the mid 70's there seemed to be a lot less of guitar products-there WAS guitar polish....

[Kuz]

I really like "Fret-Doctor". If you go to his web site he does an excellent job of discrediting a number of different fretboard oils/conditioners that people use.

[pingu]

http://www.ducksdeluxe.com/ddaxwax.html

fab

[Patrick2]

well patrick ill be interested-
and it good to know it was a penetrant

youll just have to play that old Wesmo until the ebony wears down a bit...LOL

i agree with the lemon oil thing you explained..luckily though, there must not be much in the furniture polish -
all i can attest to is that after a couple of decades of use and not knowing of alternatives ...my martin is fine-no ill effects at all

back when i started playing, about 1967 and in to the mid 70's there seemed to be a lot less of guitar products-there WAS guitar polish....

Well stevedenver, I spoke with Steve Hayes today. He said that MinWax markets the product in two seperate labelings and packaging. The one he buys is pure tung oil. When I did a google search . . . almost all descriptions of the product and it's benefits seemed to confirm everything Steve said. I do intend to research it further. I seem to remember going down this path once before, quite some time ago. As I remember it there were also a few caveats related to tung oil's usage on fret boards.

[oldane]

As I remember it there were also a few caveats related to tung oil's usage on fret boards.

If I am not mistaken, tung oil hardens after it's applied - and thus ends up being a warnish like treatment. I don't want that on my fretboards. Some people use tung oil instead of laquer on their partscaster projects.

[Patrick2]

Further researching the matter of tung oil, I found many very consistant professional opinions on it. I am feeling much more comfortable about using it exclusively on all of my ebony finger boards. The one thing that was missing from the application of tung oil on my Gibson Wesmo, was the final buffing. Steve did tell me that if I was leaving the guitar with him over night . . which I refused to do . . he would have buffed the finger board on a wheel. He has one specifically designated for buffing tung oil treated finger boards, so that there is no cross contamination when he buffs out nitro finished bodies.

[stevedenver]

i have used with great results
the mr clean bath sponge on fret boards
its the soft white one that falls apart easily

its a micro abrasive-really fine

i have a jimmy page LP which had a rather rough fingerboard-the most fibrous "rosewood" i have ever seen

i used the pad and its less abraisve than 600 sandpaper-it 'polishes' and leaves the same patina as a few years of playing-it is now flat and kinda shiny like a well used bannister or park bench-

just in case youd wish to buff it yourself-

[stevedenver]

fret doctor oil is great-but is an oil to be used sparingly imho
in 2007 i bought a NOS 2002 gold top LP that had been oiled with copious amounts of fret doctor for delivery to me from a shop in oregon or washington as i recall

upon arrival -board was beautifully dark and rich...looked like old braz
-much darker than i had ever seen on gibsons of this period

that board was oily for 6 months after purchase-hard to explain but felt ever so damp/oily -just a different feel to the fingertips

i like fret doctor-it really brings out the beauty of wood-and i still use it-i dont think its better than other oils however, and i wouldnt expect any marketer to express otherwise

its fine now
with some things
less is more-took me a long time to learn this