String height obsession!

[Brian B.]

So ... my neck is finally true, and the intonation set a closely as it's going to get (which is to say perfect at the twelfth fret ... so so good above that!). Now, what should have been the easiest thing -- setting the string height at the bridge -- is turning into an obsession! So, let me ask a question that may (or may not!) help: do you think there is a gray area, so to speak, with strings clearing the frets? What I mean is that there's a point when I know for sure that there's a buzz ... it's perfectly obvious. If I were to raise it just a bit, however, might there be a more subtle buzzing that's not so obvious to a (beginner's) ear? Or to state it yet another way ! , if I raise the action just slightly above the point of obvious buzzing, am I sacrificing tone?

You'll probably say, well, duh ... just go by what sounds good! The problem is that I'm more or less a beginner and I'm trying to develop a good sound (so I'm not really 100% sure if the guitar is playing at it's best or not!). I don't wan't to make the guitar more difficult to play to raising it too high, but on the other hand I don't want to sacrifice tone. If push comes to shove, I'd go with the latter. Should I go a little higher to be safe?

Here's how the bugger sounded right out of the box:

montgomerylatin's Channel - YouTube

Thanks for any advice!

Brian

[oldskoolchop]

for me i like to just get away from the buzz and have them as low as i can have it, i have read in other places that rule of thumb is 1.5 to 1.7 mm on the heavy E and 2.0 to 2.5 mm on the first e (i believe that is what the book said that came with my artcore as well), but i believe it is personal and you should go by what feels best to you, but others might think different

and just for info i measure with the scale (ruler) sitting on top of the 14th fret reading up to the bottom of the string

[whosgarethparry]

i used to piss my tech right off with this. i have 2.5mm across the board. on every string. thst works for and how i play. if you can't hear the buzz (plugged in), i personally would not worry, sure others will disagree. the main thing is how you play will effect the balance of action/relief, so recomendations are exactly that, a starting point.....

[oldane]

I raise the action just slightly above the point of obvious buzzing, am I sacrificing tone?

I'd say on the contrary. A higher buzz free action gives a cleaner and clearer sound. BTW, how much a guitar will buzz also depends on how forceful you pick the strings.

You'll probably say, well, duh ... just go by what sounds good!

Exactly! You shouldn't accept to be held back by your instrument. If it sounds better with a higher action, get used to that higher action.

I don't wan't to make the guitar more difficult to play to raising it too high

Getting used to a higher action is a matter of practice and getting used to it. On my electrics I have Thomastik flatwounds 13-53 with 3mm action across the board. On my acoustic archtop, which I use for 4-to-the-bar rhythm I have D'Addario 13-56 phosphor bronze with 4mm action on the treble side and 5mm at the bass side. This makes powerful picking possible for louder volume without buzzes. However, it's a preferable to practice almost every day to keep up finger strength and finger tip callouses. One can raise the action gradually as one gets used to it.

Freddie Green had an action around 1" ~ 24mm on his Gretsch Eldorado! When asked by people how that was possible to play, he answered "Oh, it did take a while getting used to it". Of course, he partly joked, but there a core of truth in it. If people can learn to play double bass, there's no reason why they can't also learn to play guitar with a higher than average low action.

[life_with_a_song]

I'm agreed on the higher action. I've been doing that for several years now, and you will get used to it quickly (your tiny hand and finger muscles learn to adjust, just like with anything else), and you will find that you get a better sound. Better? Well, to me, better equals thicker, wider dynamic range, warmer, "plumper"--all things that contribute to that sort of jazz sound that I think some of us are looking for. Of course, picks, how you use a pick, technique, pickup adjustment, etc. also come into play, but I know now that low action is not part of the equation--at least not the "low-as-you-can-go" action that a lot of people try to achieve and fall in love with. It works for shredders, but not really for us.

[SamBooka]

I got this from Dave Hunter (not personally .. but you know what I mean)

Everyone sets their action low and then raises it until it stops buzzing. He suggests for a cleaner tone do the opposite. Set the action too high and lower it until you can play comfortably.

Personally I do this (but my action is still low compared to those in the Freddie Green school)

[Al_F]

I remember raising mine up from where it was professionally set by a tech and really noticed a nice change in tone. It really makes a difference and your fingers adapt quickly.

[hot ford coupe]

With my action high, I get great tone and volume. However, and this is a big however, that high action irritates the daylights out of my arthritis and causes my left hand to hurt to the point where I can't get through 30 minutes of playing. I use 13-56 D'Addario Chromes and have to get the lowest action I can. It's strictly a matter of comfort. When I feel I can, the action goes up a little, but shortly after that, the pain is beyond what I can take. Back down goes the action. That's how you're going to have to gauge your ideal action also. It's really a trial and error kind of thing rather than going by someone's recommendation for the best action.

[princeplanet]

Any guesses as to the action height of the guitars played by Django? Wes? Benson? Martino? I'm thinking that the first 3 at least had/have action on the high side.

[CigaretteVodka]

To me agonizing over string height and gauges is just an annoyance. It just gets in the way of the journey.

Who cares how "so n' so" set up his guitar? You've got to set it up to how it feels right to you.

Look. Billy Gibbons uses 8's (Yes, I said 8's. And on a Les Paul!!). Stevie Ray used 13's. Who knows what Joe Pass used - probably fat ass 12 or 13s.

The point is your good tone is in your fingers. Strings won't make or break you. It's in your hands.

[jazzuki]

Why mess about ?Get a good technician to set-up your guitar for you -the cost is minimal compared to agonising over string height.

[oldskoolchop]

To me agonizing over string height and gauges is just an annoyance. It just gets in the way of the journey.

Who cares how "so n' so" set up his guitar? You've got to set it up to how it feels right to you.

Look. Billy Gibbons uses 8's (Yes, I said 8's. And on a Les Paul!!). Stevie Ray used 13's. Who knows what Joe Pass used - probably fat ass 12 or 13s.

The point is your good tone is in your fingers. Strings won't make or break you. It's in your hands.

exactly

[fumblefingers]

I'm agreed on the higher action. I've been doing that for several years now, and you will get used to it quickly (your tiny hand and finger muscles learn to adjust, just like with anything else), and you will find that you get a better sound. Better? Well, to me, better equals thicker, wider dynamic range, warmer, "plumper"--all things that contribute to that sort of jazz sound that I think some of us are looking for. Of course, picks, how you use a pick, technique, pickup adjustment, etc. also come into play, but I know now that low action is not part of the equation--at least not the "low-as-you-can-go" action that a lot of people try to achieve and fall in love with. It works for shredders, but not really for us.

respectfully disagree.

Starting with Charlie Christian it became clear that the jazz guitar was to be played like a horn if one had the talent. And that means occasionally fast. And that means as fast as you can because a guitarist will likely never rival the speed of a sax player.

Fast "lead" playing benefits from low action. Style has little to do with it.

[life_with_a_song]

respectfully disagree.

Starting with Charlie Christian it became clear that the jazz guitar was to be played like a horn if one had the talent. And that means occasionally fast. And that means as fast as you can because a guitarist will likely never rival the speed of a sax player.

Fast "lead" playing benefits from low action. Style has little to do with it.

Thanks for your input, fumblefingers. I don't think that higher action necessarily slows anyone down--it comes down to technique, and that is something that must be developed over time, regardless of style, thoughtfully and carefully. I come from a classical guitar background where this is paramount. There are some modern jazz players who in fact do rival saxophonists for speed at times, but that is beside the point; to me, tone suffers if action is too low--especially for most jazz guitar-style playing, and tone--at least for me--is critical.

Another note: A lot of people read "high" or "higher" action, and assume it's big-band rhythm guitarist action, but that's not what some of us are talking about here. Sometimes the slightest personalized adjustment can make the difference between one man's low and another man's high. Personally, I don't deal in measurements, because every guitar is different. I've somewhat "trained" my tech over the years in what I prefer, but then I'll always tweak it until it just falls into place where I don't have to think about it and can just play. And it may happen to be "high" for another guitarist. I may also have 12s on one guitar and 13s on another--and most people will pick one of them up and say "how do you play this," whereas another may say "why don't you put some real (heavier) strings on this thing?" It's all personal.

Thanks.

[jazzbow]

So ... my neck is finally true, and the intonation set a closely as it's going to get (which is to say perfect at the twelfth fret ... so so good above that!). Now, what should have been the easiest thing -- setting the string height at the bridge -- is turning into an obsession!
Brian

Hi Brian.
Quick question, did you measure the trueness from the fingerboard itself or the fret tops?? Frets distort when they are hammered/chased home and even pressed home with a cowl. Stew mac do a great tool for checking individual fret heights, check out the video on this link

STEWMAC.COM : Fret Rocker

This little tool has simplified my set up routine along with the notched straight edge.

Another consideration is matching bridge radius to fingerboard radius. Just set up a 1988 ES 355 and guess what, bridge radius was 12" (OE Schaller nashville bridge) and the fingerboard was 9.5" so setting the outside E strings to 1.5mm + 2mm meant that the D + G strings had a fret top rattle, especially on open notes. Wooden bridges easy to shape to appropriate radii, metal bridges hard!

As someone posted, find a tech you trust and get a set up and save yersel grief

[oldskoolchop]

it may happen to be "high" for another guitarist. I may also have 12s on one guitar and 13s on another--and most people will pick one of them up and say "how do you play this," whereas another may say "why don't you put some real (heavier) strings on this thing?" It's all personal.

Thanks.

I think you make the best of two points there

1 it is personal
I tend to like it lower than others but that is me and the way I play

2 it depends on the guitar
my solid body jackson has the lowest for me
my semi ibanez is higher but still my be lower than what others like
my nylon string is alot higher
and tonight I am setting up a solidbody dean for slide that will be pretty high

as for where to measure, i believe some asked about, i measure from atop of the fret at the 14th, but i use that as only a starting point and then go from feel from there as all my guitars have a different feel and express thing differently

as for using someone else to set it up, does not work for me. I am not letting someone else adjust my guitar just like I am not letting someone else work on my motorcycle just like I am not going to let someone else calibrate my millwright and machinist tools.
The guitar is all about feel and emotion and no one else can tell you how to feel or what emotion to have, setting the action is not hard and my ten year old daughter can do it (not saying you are dumb for not doing it, just expressing the simplicity of it), you just have to decide on what you like best, and what defines your style best
I encourage every one to learn what you can about the makeup of instruments and learn to do things yourself, to me it gives me more of a personal feeling with the instrument, someone else might have another one like mine but i have tweaked and adjusted mine to me, that makes it different, like me

[CigaretteVodka]

as for using someone else to set it up, does not work for me. I am not letting someone else adjust my guitar just like I am not letting someone else work on my motorcycle just like I am not going to let someone else calibrate my millwright and machinist tools.

Right. It's a very personal thing if your heart is in it. Grab your tools and learn to do it yourself. It's not rocket science. It's just trial and error. No tech can care about your set-up as much as you do. Run back and forth to the music shop? No way. No need to. You've got smarts. Figure it out and save your bucks.

[hot ford coupe]

Right. It's a very personal thing if your heart is in it. Grab your tools and learn to do it yourself. It's not rocket science. It's just trial and error. No tech can care about your set-up as much as you do. Run back and forth to the music shop? No way. No need to. You've got smarts. Figure it out and save your bucks.

That's how I feel about setup and action. I do my own setups, adjustments and repairs when I can. Even if I had a pro do it for me, I'd still wind up playing around with the action until it felt exactly right to my hand, i.e. no lower, no higher.

BTW, if you need to get the right tools, Stew-Mac's got 'em all.

[life_with_a_song]

Another consideration is matching bridge radius to fingerboard radius. Just set up a 1988 ES 355 and guess what, bridge radius was 12" (OE Schaller nashville bridge) and the fingerboard was 9.5" so setting the outside E strings to 1.5mm + 2mm meant that the D + G strings had a fret top rattle, especially on open notes. Wooden bridges easy to shape to appropriate radii, metal bridges hard!

As someone posted, find a tech you trust and get a set up and save yersel grief

This is a great point, and is probably a factor in more guitars than people think--at least for those of us who think about such things. I had a guitar this past year for which this was an issue (had a tonepros metal bridge), and I was really surprised, as this is a luthier who does top-level work, and has gotten many accolades over the past three years or so. I caught it and corrected it--but still, it really would seem that this would be a basic consideration on an instrument which costs over 5000.00 when new.

[fumblefingers]

Thanks for your input, fumblefingers. I don't think that higher action necessarily slows anyone down--it comes down to technique, and that is something that must be developed over time, regardless of style, thoughtfully and carefully. I come from a classical guitar background where this is paramount. There are some modern jazz players who in fact do rival saxophonists for speed at times, but that is beside the point; to me, tone suffers if action is too low--especially for most jazz guitar-style playing, and tone--at least for me--is critical.

Another note: A lot of people read "high" or "higher" action, and assume it's big-band rhythm guitarist action, but that's not what some of us are talking about here. Sometimes the slightest personalized adjustment can make the difference between one man's low and another man's high. Personally, I don't deal in measurements, because every guitar is different. I've somewhat "trained" my tech over the years in what I prefer, but then I'll always tweak it until it just falls into place where I don't have to think about it and can just play. And it may happen to be "high" for another guitarist. I may also have 12s on one guitar and 13s on another--and most people will pick one of them up and say "how do you play this," whereas another may say "why don't you put some real (heavier) strings on this thing?" It's all personal.

Thanks.

i hear ya. "high" is relative, eh?

i saw one of those super speedy guitarists recently by the way. Frank Gambale. He plaid so fast in fact, that one could not really hear the notes being articulated. At least not over Lenny While - and especially Stanley Clarke. That's why I prefer the sound of alternate pickers, even if they're slower. I suppose I would have been able to hear Gambale just fine in a quiter setting, like maybe solo guitar.

but for me, the added time required to depress the string, release it under control, and move to the next note without undue squeaking is like driving over speed bumps, and i need all the help i can get.