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This is my first post. I am new to this forum, but judging from the posts I've read I think some of you can help me.
My background: I am a novice who plays in a swing band and several smaller combos with various members of the same big band. We play mostly standards and my playing is mostly limited to rhythm with an occasional solo. I usually play a gig at least once a week now and rehearse once every week. (I’d like to start my own trio - Guitar, Bass and Organ.)
I am looking to capture, as close as I can, Wes Montgomery's tone on a budget. Can anyone recommend an amp and guitar combination that will get me close to this sound?
Here’s what I have been using so far:
Guitar – Oscar Schmidt OE40 (All stock NO Modifications) setup with flatwound 13s.
Amp – 1977 Fender Deluxe Reverb
My amp was handed down to me by a family member who never took care of it and it is now in bad shape requiring major repairs. I’d really like to hear of any suggestions on finding a solid-state amp (combo or head) because they are not as delicate or as heavy as tube amps.
Concerning the guitar I really like L-5 size archtops. I tried an Epiphone Elitist Broadway and it played and sounded much nicer than my guitar. I also tried an Ibanez Artcore and thought it sound too thin for me but it did have a great feel. I’ve also been told to look at Eastman and Peerless guitars. I really do not know much about these guitars. All the guitars I’ve been looking at cost less than $2,000 and that is the high-end of my budget.
So is it possible to get close to Wes Montgomery's tone on a budget of around $2,500-$$2750?
I look forward to hearing you suggestions/advice.
Peace
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08-06-2008 03:37 PM
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I'm thinking maybe the biggest part of his tone was his thumb. If I were you I'd get that going first.
Then I'd take your guitar to a music shop, grab a Gibson L-5 and a solid state amp - maybe a polytone or a Roland Cube 60 and see how close your guitar sounds to an L-5. Hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised. Then try some other big box guitars by epiphone and ibanez etc. and compare them to the Gibson L-5.
My opinion is the pickup and the strings and your hands (i.e. thumb in this case) are the most important factors in the sound of a guitar. Body styles and woods used make very little difference. After all the pickups are magnets not microphones, they pick up the vibration of the steel strings not the resonance of the guitar. Try singing into a guitar pickup, it doesn't work. So one option if you don't like your current guitar's sound is to change pickups.
Of course you want a guitar not just to sound good but to play real well and play in tune.
Solid state amp... the Roland Cube 60 or a polytone is a good choice imo.
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Regarding the amp, are the repairs more than that amp is worth? Perhaps you should check how much a 1977 Fender Deluxe reverb would fetch at a music store specializing in vintage gear. Some places that may help you out with this info are:
Lark Street Music, Teaneck NJ
Golden Age Music , Westwood NJ
Of course if the needed amp repairs are really extensive.....
FYI Wes' sound, his guitar had only one pup in the neck spot.
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fep,
Thanks for the reply.
I should have mentioned that I do not use a pick, only my thumb.
I certainly will try a Polytone and the Roland Cube 60 amps. They seemed to be priced reasonably.
One of the reasons I want to upgrade my guitar is that I tried some other people's archtop guitars at a clinic this past spring and they just played so much nicer than mine. (They did sing and have a sweeter tone too. Pickups?) Also, I'd like to keep my current guitar as a back-up.
I truly appreciate the advice.
Thanks!
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JohnW400,
The amp is in the shop now and the amp tech who looked at this amp said it was not worth repairing.
I will look into this a bit more and contact Lark Street Music and Golden Age Music and see what I can find out.
Thanks!
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a siilverface deluxe reverb not worth repairing? what kind of "major repairs" are we talking about here? sounds more like "i don't know how to fix it." get a second opinion...
and not to be mean, but even if you play an L5, through a standell, with your thumb, you're never going to sound like wes montgomery. your setup is pretty similar right now--big box, flatwounds, fender amp (which wes used on a lot of earlier stuff), your thumb.
what seems to be lacking in your tone? too bright? try rolling back the tone on the guitar. make sure you're using the neck pickup. you should be able to get close with that rig...
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Originally Posted by BigBandGuitar
I'm just wondering why would want to copy Wes Montgomery's tone? I mean don't you want to develop your own tone? That's apart of the fun of playing guitar is working on your own your tone.
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Mr. Beaumont, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I do not know too much about electronics so when my amp started to make lots of noise (static and hum) I brought it to my local music store. (I know they send it out for repair.) I will pick the amp up from them and try another place. I am a bit upset that I have to pay a bench charge of $50 for them to just look at the amp and then tell me it can't be fixed.
Let me be clear: I do not think I'll ever sound like Wes Montgomery, I am not even in the same league as most of you who are members of this forum. I NEVER intended my post to come off like I am trying to be the next Wes Montgomery. I am a novice player striving to improve. I can read a chart and know how to be a part of a rhythm section. (I cannot improvise or solo well at all.) It is the intention of my post to simply seek comment on the tone or timbre of Wes Montgomery and how best to capture it with available gear, as close as I can, because it sounds pleasing to my ears and is my all time favorite guitar sound.
With my current setup I feel my guitar is too muddy when I roll back the tone and it is missing a certain sweet, singing quality. I know this may not make sense to most, but my musical vocabulary is not too strong when trying to describe the sound other than to say it's Wes Montgomery's. Also, I always use the neck position pick up and never use the bridge pick up.
I appreciate your comments and will follow-up on getting a second opinion regarding my amp.
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The honest answer is that I am not that creative or knowledgeable when it comes to gear. I only use two pedals: A Boss digital reverb (the reverb channel is shot on my amp) and Boss Tuner. I play mostly standards and I love the timbre of Wes Montgomery's guitar and think it will work great with what I am doing at the moment. Originally Posted by frisellfan19
So I really do not want devote too much time to developing my own tone. I'd rather spend time developing my technique and expanding my knowledge of music theory particularly chord substitutions. For me, this is part of “the fun of playing guitar”.
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Originally Posted by BigBandGuitar
You will soon find out that guitar tone is an important part of your quest for musical freedom. It inspires you to play, but whatever works for you, I mean if you're looking for a standard jazz guitar then that's great. I can get a standard jazz guitar tone anytime I want when I plug in my Ibanez archtop, but for me, that's not being honest with myself, because I don't sound like that.
There comes a point in time where you say to yourself "I need to find my sound." I have experimented with my tone for 17 years! My basic setup is this:
TC Electronic Vintage compression
Digitech Bad Monkey Overdrive (for distorted leads only)
Boss DD-6 Digital Delay
Boss TR-2 Tremolo
Line 6 DL4 (for short loops only)
Electro-Harmonix Memory Man With Hazarai (for longer loops)
Lexicon MPX-110 (for reverb only)
I use a stereo setup, meaning that I have my signal split going into two different amplifiers.
For about 9 years, I played a Zoom multi-effects unit, but I soon realized that this is not my sound. So getting a good tone that I was happy with has been constant trial-and-error.
You will always sound like yourself no matter what kind of tone you use, but I will tell you as time goes on, you will become increasingly unhappy with your tone, especially since you probably don't come from a jazz guitar background, which is pretty much 98% of jazz guitarists these days.
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Yeah I read somewhere that Wes wasn't much of an equipment man. He had his L5 that he treated like it was his only child.. but other than that didn't use any effects and just played through whatever amp the club provided. I think his tone's going to be really hard to pinpoint so the guitar upgrade is probably as close as you're going to be able to come. For that I would probably go with Fep's original suggestion. Epiphone makes the Elitist series. They go in the $1500 to $2000 range. Maybe look into that.
I love Wes's tone though so I get where you're coming from. Really natural and seems to me, sometimes, that he's playing unplugged. Sounds really acoustic and resonant.
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The thing that I love about Wes' tone was how he would distort slightly when he really dug in with chords and double stops. I don't know if this was a bi-product of his amp being turned up so high, but it really gave his tone a crunch to it that I didn't hear from a lot of other players. Benson and Grant Green had this occasionaly but it didn't stand out to me like Wes' sound.
MW
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Let me preface my remarks by saying that I do appreciate your input and I have considered what you have to say. Originally Posted by frisellfan19
I agree with you “that guitar tone is an important part of your quest for musical freedom. It inspires you to play”. Concerning your comments in regard to a “standard jazz guitar tone” I think you pointed out the fact, without actually saying it, that the tone we seek from our instruments is completely subjective. What you prefer in terms of the tone/timbre of your guitar and the way that signal is processed and is presented by your amp to your ears, compared to what I enjoy is quite different. Please do not read into this that I am saying one is better than the other. What I am saying is “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. (Or, in this case, should I say: beauty is in the ear of the beholder?)
In terms of my background and how I came to play guitar - I have been playing guitar now for a bit over six years. I had been a bass player in high school, but in 10th grade our guitarist graduated and a spot opened up in our school’s Jazz Band and I volunteered to give it a try. That summer I began lessons and learned what my teacher called “swing guitar chords”.
I was part of the “nerd crowd” in high school. (Some would say I am still part of that crowd.) During high school I played in the orchestra and in the pit for all the school musicals. Most of the horn players from high school and I are still very good friends and we still play together in various combos. I enjoy playing show tunes, jazz standards and a lot of Bebop. While I enjoy rock and pop stuff, it is not really my passion. (I hate most radio station's selection of songs.)
I just graduated college and I will be attending grad school in a few weeks and hope to become a history teacher and to continue to play guitar with my friends.
I am curious, what type of music do play frisellfan19 and how do you work all those effects into your style?
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Originally Posted by BigBandGuitar
I certainly agree that guitar tone is subjective and is a matter of what you like. I'm not going to debate that and I'm just glad you're playing jazz or choose to go in that direction with your playing.
What type of music do I play? This is a difficult question, because I normally don't think about my own style too much, but since you asked I gave it some thought and I would consider what I play a blend of rock, folk, world musics like Indian and Oriental, and the way I go about the music is very much jazz influenced. Improvisation plays about 98% into what I do on the guitar. I don't, and can't, play the same part twice and it's not so much a matter of memory as it is more about what mood I'm trying to get across.
I use reverb, delay, and compression to give me more sustain and color my tone. It's a personal preference, because I do not like a dry tone at all. It sounds lifeless to me. The tremolo I use on occasion is just another color. I use rhythmic loops to setup textural and harmonic possiblities. Like one of my favorite things to do is play a series of chords and stack other chords on top of them and this creates completely different chords. I don't use loops like most people do. I use them more for like I was saying and for overtones.
If you think about it I really don't use that many effects: reverb, delay, distortion (every now and then), and tremolo. That's pretty much it. Nothing too far out there and nothing that somebody else couldn't get a hold of.
I can't play that bebop stuff. I have tried years ago and I had somebody show me something by Charlie Parker, then he showed me some Oscar Peterson and from there my mind was blown and so were my fingers! I just can't do it, but I respect anybody who can. My playing is more in realm of texture and atmosphere.
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That amp IS worth repairing, even if it takes a new transformer and some caps and pots to get it fixed. Those old Deluxe Reverbs--even silverface, command good prices. I hope this amp tech didn't tell you he'd take it off your hands for $50.00 or something. Originally Posted by BigBandGuitar
As for the perfect "Wes" guitar on a budget, that was my goal too, but my budget was about $500.00. I went to a shop that had a bunch of jazz electrics--Gibson, Epiphone, Ibanez, Hamer and Washburn. I played everything--even stuff I couldn't afford--just so I could have a decent frame of reference. They had a couple of Oscar Schmidt OM40's too.
I didn't like any of the Washburn guitars. The Hamer played well and was a good sounding guitar. I played two ES-175's--a Gibson and an Epiphone and I was not crazy about either. The OM40's struck me as extremely heavy and they were uncomfortable to play, neck-wise. That could have just been the set up, but I couldn't bond with that instrument.
I was about to get a used Epiphone Emperor, which I thought sounded good with 13 flats on it. Then, just as I was about to walk to the counter, I saw an Ibanez Artcore AK 86. I figured I might as well try it. The other Artcores did sound kind of thin to me, but I plugged this guitar in and it was magic. On the neck pickup, with the tone rolled off a bit, there was "that" tone--fat and warm, while resonant and musical. Set up with flatwound 12's, that Artcore took on a totally different personality from the others with round wound strings. I ended up buying the Artcore and played all afternoon.
Though it was used, I paid only $339.00 for the guitar. Its beautiful--spruce top, maple back and sides, bound fingerboard, three piece neck. I thought I'd want to replace the pickups with some Gibson Classic 57's, but the existing pickups sound so right to me that I am not going to bother. I wish I could have you play it. You can find what you seek and you probably can come in well under budget if you can look around and try some instruments.
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I would seriously look into getting a Gibson 335 or a guitar with a similar body style. I have been playing an old Oscar Schmidt Spirit and it's a semi-hollowbody. Fantastic guitar and sounds as great, if not better, than the Gibson. They have a very warm sound. Definitely worth looking into.
You know a lot people talk about the guitar, but that's only half the battle. Your own touch and the effects you use also play a big part. As far as amplifiers go, solid-state will work just fine. In my opinion, there isn't really a single "jazz" amplifier. I would definitely look into a Jay Turser Classic 25. Great sound, 25-watts.
As far as effects go, I would look into getting a reverb unit preferably a Lexicon. I own the Lexicon MPX-110 and it has some great sounding reverbs. I have heard other reverbs in the past and am very partial to Lexicon for the simple fact that they do make the best sounding reverb on the market.
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Remember he's looking for a Wes kind of tone. The only effects you're going to hear Wes using are his guitar's natural tone, the natural distortion of his amplifier and that thumb of his. That's what makes imitating his tone so difficult... there's nothing to imitate. I would say that Wes's tone is one that you'll probably come closest to on a full hollow archtop guitar.
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Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
This is true, so what you're implying is he shouldn't even try to get Wes' tone, because it's hard to get.
I will say that he should work harder to get his OWN tone. That's what I've been saying all along. It doesn't matter what he wants at this point, what does matter is finding something that you like and that inspires you to play.
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Originally Posted by frisellfan19
Yeah. That's not at all what I was saying. I was just telling him that Wes's tone gets a lot from his total LACK of effects. So if he wants to go for that kind of tone. Effects won't be the priority. The guitar and amp and technique will come first and effects will help him to tweek what he wants to tweek.
Also, the guy asked what to look into to get Wes style tone. This is his thread so I would say what he wants kind of does matter.
Finding a tone you like and imitating it is a huge part of coming into your own tone. Once you get it to sound that way, you start to tweek it and add in all the little bells and whistles and make it your own. It's the same with playing... copying the greats that you admire helps you to develop your own style. You take what you like, then you throw in your own stuff, take something from someone else, add a little more of your own and all of a sudden you've got something new.
Some famous writer (I want to say Thomas Jefferson, but don't hold me to that) said that "any writer who writes more than he reads won't better himself". Works the same way for music tone and technique. You listen... almost as much as you play. You learn from those that have been there, and then make it your own.
I've always thought that quote might exaggerate just a little, but there's definitely a message in there.
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Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
Yeah. That's not at all what I was saying. I was just telling him that Wes's tone gets a lot from his total LACK of effects. So if he wants to go for that kind of tone. Effects won't be the priority. The guitar and amp and technique will come first and effects will help him to tweek what he wants to tweek.
Also, the guy asked what to look into to get Wes style tone. This is his thread so I would say what he wants kind of does matter.
Finding a tone you like and imitating it is a huge part of coming into your own tone. Once you get it to sound that way, you start to tweek it and add in all the little bells and whistles and make it your own. It's the same with playing... copying the greats that you admire helps you to develop your own style. You take what you like, then you throw in your own stuff, take something from someone else, add a little more of your own and all of a sudden you've got something new.
Some famous writer (I want to say Thomas Jefferson, but don't hold me to that) said that "any writer who writes more than he reads won't better himself". Works the same way for music tone and technique. You listen... almost as much as you play. You learn from those that have been there, and then make it your own.
I've always thought that quote might exaggerate just a little, but there's definitely a message in there.
You're only preaching to the choir. I've been playing the guitar for 18 years.
Everybody imitates everybody. That's just apart of music, because in the back of my mind, I'm thinking "How how can I play that Metheny lick again?" or "I wonder what John Abercrombie would do here?" You know little things like this are in the back of my mind. I can only hope that it evolves from there, but yes, ultimately we want to sound like our heroes and unfortunately I'm still trying to mimic them in some sad way.
I mean just like today, for example, I stole a lick right from a Ben Monder solo. We all make these stabs at somebody we like whether it's something we think about or not.
There are several people here for example Matthew Warnock sounds a lot like Ed Bickert and Jake Hanlon sounds a good bit like John Abercrombie.
We all sound like somebody, but hopefully, it's something that is only on the surface and doesn't really define who we are.
That's all I'm saying.Last edited by frisellfan19; 08-14-2008 at 03:14 PM.
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Ok, I can see this debate may heat up anytime now...
To help you out, dude, rather than to tell you what I think you should do...
Here's what you should look at:
Amp: Roland Cube 30 or 60, probably 60 because you perform. Great amp, great tone, reliable.
Guitar: Ibanez AF series. You said you tried one out, but you didn't specify which model. The AF series is the one that looks a lot like an L-5. They come stock with 10s, so that's probably why it sounded thin. I own an Ibanez PM35, and it cost me around $750, which may be a bit too high for you. But the Ibanez Artcores (and the older Artstars) are incredible guitars. They get better with age and they feel and sound great. They are, in my opinion, the best jazz guitars under $1,000. Also, there's one important factor to consider here: The resonance of Wes' tone definitely is helped by the fact that he had a single neck pickup, which my PM35 has. The bridge pickup can cut down on a little bit of vibration, and because my PM35 doesn't have one, and is a very similar guitar in body size and shape to the L-5, it has a similar resonance to Wes'. The pickup is powerful enough to have lots of body, but very clean, and the tone knob is very very active...you can coax a lot of tones out of it.
I hope that helps.
smitty
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That's exactly what I was saying. It seems like me and you have a way of thinking that we're arguing with eachother, when we're actually agreeing. Oh well. Anyway, I definitely agree with you there, I was just telling him that I think Wes's tone was more in the guitar and the thumb then anything else. So anyway, sorry if I sounded like I was trying to argue with you or put you down. I didn't mean it that way. We were disagreeing on the specifics but not on the big picture. Originally Posted by frisellfan19
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As far as guitars under 1000 go, I've always been a fan of Epiphone, but Ibanez makes a great jazz guitar. A friend of mine is a jazz major at New School and plays an Ibanez. I want to say it's one from the AF line. He said he got it for $700 or so. I haven't played it but he gets an incredible tone.
The Ibanez is definitely a good suggestion though. I think Epiphones tend to be heavier and get a deeper tone but the Ibanez's I've played have fantastic actions and still get a really nice jazz sound. Even if you are looking for something in the $1000 to $2000 range you might be surprised by some of the Ibanez and Epiphone guitars that go for less. Anyway, have a nice guitar search.
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I too love the Wes sound, to me it is perfect, and i am also trying to get the same sound, why? because to my ears there is nothing better, it sounds natural, fat and expressive, and when it starts to break up, well im in heaven, sound heaven, no effects or fancy gizmos just the guitar, amp and fingers/thumb.
My advice is this, i really like the Epiphones, and i have the Epi ES-175 reissue, i plan to get the Emperor one day, the guitar is based on the L5, it has one floating pup at the neck, but i may plan on getting a Gibson 56 put in and make a poor mans L5, you may want to look at this guitar.
As far as Amps go i dont have one, i play straight thru my POD to my digital recorder, no effects or amp simulation just the guitar with a little reverb, my sound is getting closer to what i want, buy i really want an Amp also, ideally i would like the Fender Pro Reverb or a Twin, but they are expensive, i have heard many people talking about the Roland Cube60, its a possibility, you could also try this amp, but i would definately get another opinion on your Fender, before you buy another, definately!
I play with my thumb also, a huge part of getting "the tone", it starts with your thumb and fingers, then the Guitar and Amp combo, getting the tone you adore will take your playing to new heights, its inspiring, good luck finding it.
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Fender Blues Jr. or Hot Rod Deluxe are both great amps. The Deluxe is 40 watt and gives you a ton of head room, but that little 15 watt Blues Jr. is one loud son of a gun. They both have a fantastic clean sounds.
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