Artcore Guitar vs Nylon Acoustic-Electric

[SLGuitar]

First post...At 60, I'm now using my cheapo solid body electric to learn some jazz chord voicings, and get some technique going...I don't figure that I'm going to find guys to play with, so I'm counting on learning 1) fingerstyle solo, like Martin Taylor /Joe Pass, and playing American Popular Song stuff, as well as 2) jazz meets samba (Jobim), and 3) some Django style.....I'm not thinking at this point of being able to play in a combo like a John Scofield......I don't want to spend a lot of money, I have a small Crate amp, my steel string acoustics are not cutaways, so to play the music I describe looking seriously at Ibanez guitars like the AS73....when someone asked me why don't I look at the nylon string acoustic-electrics, they told me Martin Taylor plays nylon strings on his custom made Vandam, no pick....I don't have a clue about acoustic-electrics in terms of playing the music I describe above, perhaps they would be a truer sound in fingerstyle Ameican songbook, and Jobim stuff, but I don't know what kind of electric volume the less than $400 acousto-electric guitars (used) get....anyone have thoughts, given the type of music, the fact that I'll probably be playing a lot on my own, on checking the AS or AF, AG series of Ibanez (they seem to have the most value for the buck), or the nylon electro-acoustic guitars...I'd appreciate your thinking on this...

[ScottM]

I can vouch for the Artcores. There are some AS73's in a local store, and I love playing them. I have owned 2 of these, and they seem to be very consistent, good playing guitars. I also love nylon strings for just about anything, but be sure you look for a more standard (electric style) neck. A solid top is nice and won't break the bank on a Chinese made instrument that will have decent electronics.

-Scott

[SLGuitar]

I can vouch for the Artcores. There are some AS73's in a local store, and I love playing them. I have owned 2 of these, and they seem to be very consistent, good playing guitars. I also love nylon strings for just about anything, but be sure you look for a more standard (electric style) neck. A solid top is nice and won't break the bank on a Chinese made instrument that will have decent electronics.

-Scott

Scott, Many thanks for your helpful prompt response. If you have any suggestions for a value priced (such as the AS73 is value priced ) Chinese made solid top with the thinner electric style neck in the electric-acoustic nylon guitar, please fire away.....I'm just curious, given that we know Joe Pass used a Les Paul on the "Virtuoso" , & Martin Taylor, uses a nylon string Vandam, about your thoughts re: which guitar (A73 vs. the nylon string) is more versatile in terms of playing American songbook fingerstyle, some jazz samba Jobim, Django...I never saw Pass, but I saw Martin Taylor play with mandolin maestro David Grisman and double bassist Samson Grisman in a NYC club last month, and it blew me away. Martin Taylor has a Guitar Academy online, I don't know how his online curriculum compares with that of Bruno, or the online instruction offered by Django-style Robin Nolan, or other online teachers these days...again, your thoughts are welcome.
Steve

[max chill]

The sound we most identify with solo jazz guitar is electric archtop.

[caravan]

The Ibanez AS73 has a sound block (sustain block) inside. That means a solid block of wood under the bridge area. Some f-hole guitars, like some of the Ibanez AF models, don't have a solid block of wood in the center, but rather a vibrating top with long braces for a more acoustic sound. You need to go to your local guitar store and try out everything that interests you... even if its beyond your range of what you can afford.

Be sure that the salesman includes a guitar case for free.

[joestone]

The sound we most identify with solo jazz guitar is electric archtop.

Wow, I must've missed that meeting.

[TH]

Some f-hole guitars, like some of the Ibanez AF models, don't have a solid block of wood in the center, but rather a vibrating top with long braces for a more acoustic sound. You need to go to your local guitar store and try out everything that interests you... even if its beyond your range of what you can afford.
.

Yes. Each type of guitar has something to offer, nylon has a subtlety to it that is very expressive, and you can play the full range of music you want. Steel really is a different animal; more energy goes into the guitar through steel and it has a wider dynamic range. Caravan's suggestion is a good one. Try this option too: steel string flat top. It sounds like you want an instrument that will please yourself for chord solo music. Just for kicks, find an OM or OOO sized flat top, maybe be with a cutaway, you also see these as Concert or Auditorium designations. Taylor makes nice ones. Eastman also has ones with good value. You might find the acoustic quality of this type of instrument and the power of a steel string, strung lightly, even, can inspire you to play the things you hear. It's one option that is often overlooked because of traditions and conventions-still worth considering. You can even have a luthier put a humbucker into the soundhole if you find you want to plug into an amp and get a jazzy electric sound.
David

[ScottM]

Sorry, SLG. I had an AF75. I just realized I had the wrong model number in my original response. I think the 73 is more like an ES335 type design, which is probably not what you want. The 75 is a more traditional style, hollow, 16" body, single cutaway guitar. I sold it to upgrade to an "Artcore Custom," which is also an incredible value.

The nylon string guitar I currently play is a Fender that I saw on their website, and I had my local dealer get one for me. I think it retails for around $500. It has a solid cedar top and Fishman electronics. You can see it in my avatar or here: Fender Products

I have a Godin endorsement and play a Montreal model. They make great stuff as well, but not many traditional designs in nylon or archtop. (with the exception of the 5th ave. and its variations.)

-Scott

[Uli]

Why not have a nylon string AND an archtop guitar?
For me, the nice thing about a nylon string guitar is it's response and the training effect it has on your hands, compared to an electric/steel string. Apart from the sound as such, another difference is sustain. Although usually archtops don't have that much of it, compared to a nylon string it makes quite a difference. Personally I think achtop and nylon string is a much better combination than, say, archtop and solid body electric, at least if the latter comes with the usual setup (i.e. 9' strings or thinner).

[paynow]

I think they're great guitars for the money you pay. I got this in 2006 for about $300 bucks new, on Musician's Friend, without the case. The case was an extra $100 so all told with the shipping it was pretty cheap. Someone mentioned making sure they throw in a case; I doubt it, given how inexpensive the guitar is. Mine came with nickel wounds on it, 10 gauge, which I changed to chromes that were a bit heavier. I didn't have to do anything except adjust the intonation which is very easy to do with this guitar. If that's not your thing you can get someone to set it up for you.


I also have a classical nylon guitar, not a great one but I love it and play it everyday. Obviously it's a different feel, has a wider neck, etc. Also there isn't a cutaway on mine so I can't really get chords that go above the 11th fret.

[ronjazz]

I'm reasonably sure Joe Pass did not use a Les Paul for Virtuoso, nor does Martin Taylor use nylon strings. Joe played either a Gibson ES175 or a D'Aquisto archtop. In general, the archtop electric for solo work will give you a bit more sustain, may be physically a little easier to play than a classical, but, unless you get one with a real carved top, may not respond well without an amp. A nylon crossover-style guitar would be a nice compromise: the "feel" of an electric-style neck, with a cutaway, but the nice unamplified sound of a classical, great for practicing.

[SLGuitar]

I'm reasonably sure Joe Pass did not use a Les Paul for Virtuoso, nor does Martin Taylor use nylon strings. Joe played either a Gibson ES175 or a D'Aquisto archtop. In general, the archtop electric for solo work will give you a bit more sustain, may be physically a little easier to play than a classical, but, unless you get one with a real carved top, may not respond well without an amp. A nylon crossover-style guitar would be a nice compromise: the "feel" of an electric-style neck, with a cutaway, but the nice unamplified sound of a classical, great for practicing.

Thanks for your thought. I'm a bit lost on whether any archtop electo-semi acoustic can be played with a nylon string...I'm not sure what is an example of a "crossover-style" guitar that you refer to ...I mean, for fingerstyle, or samba, can you put a nylon string on an Ibanez AF 75 hollowbody, or a Loar electric? As for Martin Taylor's strings, there's something in Martin Taylor's guitar tone that sounds like Excel acoustic nylon strings, but yes, I could be wrong, and I will try to find out via his online Guitar Academy...(he could be playing steel strings without a pick)...
SLG

[ScottM]

The "crossover" refers to a nylon string guitar (which traditionally has a big, wide, square neck for classical players) with a neck that is more like an electric or steel string acoustic. It makes the switch between steel string and nylon string guitars easier because of the similarity in neck size and string spacing.

For various reasons, nylon strings can only go on nylon string guitars and steel strings on electric guitars, either hollow, semi-hollow or solid.

I am trying to simplify this as much as possible. In reality, there are many types of strings for many specific applications for guitars that are not nylon string guitars.

Hope this helps.

-Scott

[ronjazz]

There are some builders making arch-top nylon-string guitars, but these are very expensive and not necessarily expensive. The reason Martin Taylor's tone is so "acoustic" is because he plays with his fingertips, and he uses both magnetic and piezo pickups, on steel strings. Keep in mind that the guitars that you're referencing have magnetic pickups, and nylon would not be "heard" by the pickup.

[SLGuitar]

The nylon string guitar I currently play is a Fender that I saw on their website, and I had my local dealer get one for me. I think it retails for around $500. It has a solid cedar top and Fishman electronics. You can see it in my avatar or here: Fender Products

I have a Godin endorsement and play a Montreal model.

-Scott

Scott,

Thanks for your responses. Your Fender (and those "hybrids" made by La Patrie/Godin) are noted ... since you have so many choices among your guitars, just curious what type of material is on the setlist when you reach for / play your Fender....

[ScottM]

It's rare that I take the Fender out of the house. I am working on doing some solo and trio work that will call for some use of the nylon strings, but I will use it primarily for Latin styles.

I teach at a community college, and in the Avatar photo, the classical guitar instructor and I are playing in a concert at the Red Skelton Performing Arts Center. We did two tunes, "The Shape of My Heart" by Sting and a George Barnes/Carl Kress arrangement of "Stompin' at the Savoy." I guess that would indicate that I will play anything on nylon strings. And I am, by no means, a nylon string specialist. I just like the sound.

-Scott

[Hernandinho]

First post...At 60, I'm now using my cheapo solid body electric to learn some jazz chord voicings, and get some technique going...I

My opinion as a fellow newbie: I would go ahead and learn on whatever guitar you currently have and are comfortable with. That's what I'm doing right now (I have a nylon acoustic). In my limited experience, learning jazz chords, arpeggios, etc, will make you sound like jazz whatever you are playing.

Unless you have a paying gig that requires you to show up with a Super 400, there's always time to buy equipment later.

[SLGuitar]

I guess that would indicate that I will play anything on nylon strings. And I am, by no means, a nylon string specialist. I just like the sound.

-Scott

I too like that sound, and getting back to Martin Taylor for a sec (it's because I may join his online Guitar teaching Academy), I guess I just got faked out a bit by his sound/acoustic tone in the sense that I thought it must be a Vandam nylon string guitar....but now on the basis of the several responses to my post, I am assuming his Vandam archtop guitar pickups may be "disguising" the steel strings that he's probably using, although I'm curious what gauge of steel strings enable his lightning quick fingerpicking .....I also realize that Martin Taylor will use the one archtop guitar and its acoustic sound to 1) play solo, 2) play American songbook duets with a mandolin (Grisman), 3) play in acoustic hot Django bands (his most recent CD), and I assume he'd play that one guitar if he were in a Brazilian jazz group. But: Do you think it's possible to get that jazzy acoustic sound with a popular price archtop guitar, say, the Ibby Artcore series, (only a used Artcore Custom would be in my price range)?....as my original post states, I have other guitars, but need one new instrument to be versatile for solo, small groups, whatever, playing thru a small Crate amp, and spur me to want to play/practice and take lessons ....playing just for fun....further thoughts? thx.

[ScottM]

I think you will get the most satisfaction out of one guitar if you go with a budget archtop. (a new AF75 Artcore, maybe. http://www.ibanez.com/HollowBodyGuitars/model-AF75) You will be fine playing all styles with it, but I think a nylon string guitar will fall short in certain situations. There is no harm in bucking the trend and playing everything on a solid guitar. Many players do it, and I wish I could play like they do. Point is - you need to be comfortable with the playability and happy with the sound in whatever context you may find yourself. (solo, combo, big band, Motley Crue tribute band, or whatever.)

Just my opinion, and worth what it cost.

-Scott

[SLGuitar]

In my limited experience, learning jazz chords, arpeggios, etc, will make you sound like jazz whatever you are playing.

Thanks, I understand fully what you're saying and advising....what's spurring me in part is I may soon have a chance to run through and play certain tunes with a keyboardist, his friends, they know their stuff, and tho it's very informal and all, my Phantom electric is best for a basement rock band, and my acoustic guitars are not amplified......just curious, I see you joined this group 2 years ago, specifically how have you been learning jazz guitar...private lessons, online, self-learning through DVDs, books, playing with others....and what you recommend?

[Hernandinho]

Thanks, I understand fully what you're saying and advising....what's spurring me in part is I may soon have a chance to run through and play certain tunes with a keyboardist, his friends, they know their stuff, and tho it's very informal and all, my Phantom electric is best for a basement rock band, and my acoustic guitars are not amplified......just curious, I see you joined this group 2 years ago, specifically how have you been learning jazz guitar...private lessons, online, self-learning through DVDs, books, playing with others....and what you recommend?

Hi, I have been mostly going through the Mickey Baker book, slowly but surely. I don't have too much time to practice at home, unfortunately, much less to take lessons with a teacher.

What I like about Baker's book is that it gives you a gut feeling about what the chords are doing... what they call "functional harmony" I guess. I have been going through a couple tunes from the Real Book, and Baker's method helps with understanding where the chords are going, instead of just chasing the chords one at a time.

I don't have any recommendation on what guitar to buy; personally I play a nylon string classical mostly because 1) I'm used to the classical fretboard size 2) no need to plug it in or anything 3) I can let my kids play with it without fear of ruining a multi-thousand-dollar Gibson Super 400.

Probably when I'm ready to jam with some other musicians I will look into getting an archtop of some sort... hopefully by that time my kids will be a bit more civilized

Just to throw another idea... have you thought about buying a piezo bridge or some other type of pickup for your acoustic? That may be enough for the time being... Good luck with your music!

EDIT: By the way, there are many (most) people in the forum that have lots more experience than I and will be able to make better recommendations of learning material. Many of them bona fide music teachers and pro players; I 'm just a hobbyist and play strictly for my own amusement at the moment.

[SLGuitar]

There are some builders making arch-top nylon-string guitars, but these are very expensive and not necessarily expensive. The reason Martin Taylor's tone is so "acoustic" is because he plays with his fingertips, and he uses both magnetic and piezo pickups, on steel strings. Keep in mind that the guitars that you're referencing have magnetic pickups, and nylon would not be "heard" by the pickup.

I've been informed by the people at ArtistWorks, who sponsor the Martin Taylor Guitar Academy, that "Martin uses Elixir Acoustic 12's on his Vanden Guitar although some of his recent lessons have him playing a Peerless." So can one use these Elixir Acoustic 12s on any guitar other than expensive custom made ones?