Are Low Action and String Tension Related?

[oldane]

what about headstock length? did the Johnny Smith use the super 400 headstock as opposed to the L5 headstock to gain back some tension after relinquishing it to the shorter scale?

or is that bunk?

To qoute myself: "There is one and only one string tension which will produce a given note with a given string at a given string length. The higher the tension, the higher the note and vice versa."

So yes, I do think it's bunk.

But maybe you are talking about "percieved fretting resistance" which is made up of the string tension PLUS some other factors as well (nut slot heigth, action, relief). Like NiAg wrote, in theory that could be influenced by the length of the peghead ~ the length of string between nut and tuning post - but IMHO not to a perceptable degree (and a longer peghead should decrease the fretting resistance and not increase it). After all the difference of this string lengh between a shorter and longer peghead is moderate. I don't percieve any noticable difference in the fretting resistance of the two E strings as compared to the D and G strings, though the length of string between nut and tuning post is much longer with the latter (on a normal "3 on each side" peghead).

[oldane]

Again (and again), most nuts are too high. This affects playability to a surprising extent, and badly affects low position intonation.

.....

The absolute first thing in a setup is to get the nut slots down at fret height. Remarkably, this is still not really done in many cases.

Agree 100%. There are surpricingly many guitars out there with badly cut nut slots - also high end guitars. Not only are the slots too high, but they are often also cut with too little slope so the string break point is not at the front of the nut but randomly somewhere farther back on the nut - often varying from string to string (I'm not talking about deliberate compensation like the Buzz Feiten nut). That will, of course, affect intonation of the open strings adversely and will effectively prevent tuning up with the open strings. I have more than once touched up nut slots after buying a guitar.

[NiAg]

[oldane] >>> Agree 100%.

Yeah, well you're WRONG! (Just figured we needed some dispute,...)

>>> deliberate compensation like the Buzz Feiten nut

A question to the forum in general: Do youse-guys feel like slogging through how a compensated nut works? It is a little more complicated than bridge compensation, but sort of interesting if you like that sort of thing.

And through all of this please let me give the opinion that playing is far more important and fun than these nuts and bolts.

[pingu]

Yes I for one would like to know how the compensated nut thing works
I like your posts Nick , most erudite

[oldane]

And through all of this please let me give the opinion that playing is far more important and fun than these nuts and bolts.

Amen!

[NiAg]

>>> most erudite

I thought personal insults were off-limits (out of bounds, into touch, caught out, or whatever it is you Britons say,...)

EDIT: Man I could do with a few pints at a mid-week Sevens at Richmond RFC,...

[Latif]

I would also like to know how important it is to have the string a bit above the top of the nut. I've often seen the recommendation to leave half the diameter of the string above the top of the nut but rarely see it and mostly only on the low strings, on all of both high and low end guitars I've owned.

Latif

[NiAg]

>>> how important [is it] to have the string a bit above the top of the nut

In principle, you could have a nut with each slot exactly matched to the respective string diameter. In such a case, each slot could be as deep as exactly half the string diameter, with 1/2 of the string above the top of the nut. This is sort of the basis for the sometimes-stated ideal of the 1/2 diameter nut slot.

Also, in theory anyway, a deep and sloppy nut slot could allow for some string rattle within a very poorly cut slot. This may be part of the traditional aesthetic of a shallow, 1/2 string diameter, nut slot.

In practice, as you notice, this (1/2 diameter slot depth) is almost never done on guitars - particularly on the narrower treble strings.

Also, many guitar headstocks are designed with a significant side bend of the string as it exits the back of the nut toward the tuner posts. So in principle, a 1/2 diameter nut slot would need to be centered not under the bottom of the string, but offset to compensate for the (sometimes extreme) sideways turn toward the tuner.

In my opinion, it is not practical on many guitars to actually cut 1/2 diameter nut slots. Try it on one of those canoe paddle headstocks and watch those high strings pop out of the slots.

Further, it is difficult to exactly match the slot shape to a narrow-diameter string. A mismatch (even a slight mismatch) between the slot and the string can allow a string to pop out of a slot whose depth is 1/2 the string diameter.

If you are cutting a nut for a classical double-bass with Trans-Atlantic cable strings, and a relatively straight pull through the slots, then it is practical to finish the top of the nut at about the height of 1/2 the diameter of the strings. The absolute tolerances are relatively large, and few blues masters do extreme bends on a fretless double bess.

Some high end classical guitars, with their relatively large-diameter strings (and arguably sedate bending style) are built with the top of the nut cut down to look at least somewhat close to the 1/2 diameter of the strings.

But try doing this on a .012 high E (never mind the even narrower strings used by some), and it can be difficult to keep the string from popping out under duress. Side loads on the slot and slight diameter mismatches make a shallow nut slot arguably impractical.

Now, a super deep slot is considered a sign of a mass produced nut. Many luthiers take some pride is finishing the top of a nut nicely. This includes the aesthetics of a polished, and somewhat rounded surface with some of the diameter on the bass strings clear of the top of the nut.

But in practice, you could have a very deep nut slot that is cut well and works just fine. It might just look a little sloppy - especially if you look at how many modern nut files are designed and how this would shape the upper part of a very deep slot.

The classically "correct" way to make a stringed instrument nut is one thing, what works is arguably something else - in my opinion.

[pingu]

>>> most erudite

I thought personal insults were off-limits (out of bounds, into touch, caught out, or whatever it is you Britons say,...)

EDIT: Man I could do with a few pints at a mid-week Sevens at Richmond RFC,...

I assumed you were a Yank
I used to live near Richmond , Twickenham in fact

[NiAg]

Am a Yank.

The circumstances of my life just have gotten me around some. I used to stay in Richmond often (the tatty, but well placed Richmond Hill Hotel - just across the street from Pete Townshend's house, and a few doors down from The Roebuck with the great view out front).

I lived in Europe during the dull as dishwater football World Cup in 1990 (was accidentally in Milan the evening of the final - still dull). Then the next year we had the '91 Rugby World Cup which had to be the best sports tournament I have ever seen - made a fan of me. Never saw anything at Twickers, but have been to the Stoop a few times.

Now back in the US and stopped traveling about 6 years ago. It's a weird change after so much for so long.

Anyway, not very interesting to the forum in general,...

[Latif]

[quote=NiAg;138355]>>> how important [is it] to have the string a bit above the top of the nut

Thanks so much for the detailed answer! Exactly what I wanted to know.