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Hi, my first post here. Thanks for this forum.
I currently play on Twin Reverb 65 Reissue from the 1990's (I'm only using one of the two speakers after removing the inherent tubes to make it quieter). I always use it at low volume (around 3-4) with no tremolo and no reverb. It's a great sound obviously. Large, lush and always clean.
But it's a very different sound from that very smooth sweet guitar tone I hear in 50's jazz records. I'm thinking of records like the early Barney Kessel albums for Contemporary, or "Ellis in wonderland" by Herb Ellis in 1956. The attack of each sound given by the amp seems extremely soft and "slow", not as punchy, snappy or aggressive like with my Twin or other modern amps.
Was there a standard amp used by these guys in the 50's? Ampeg, Fender?
(I play a 59 Gibson ES-125 TD with Lollar P90s)
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02-09-2011 05:10 PM
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what strings you using ?
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I'd try out some lower wattage tube amps (5-10w) with smaller speakers (8-10"). To get a Twin to wake up (and like many amps), you've got to get the amp really running, which usually means cranking it up a bit. A cranked Twin will make your teeth fall out of your head -- just too loud for most gigs. Smaller amps can be turned up and start opening up without having to visit the dentist afterwards.
At least that's one avenue to pursue. Plus, those 50s guitar tones sometimes have just a bit of grit in them. Not crystalline clear most of the time, but a little edge.
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Yeah, you've got the guitar--experiment with a smaller amp.
The famed "Rudy Van Gelder" amp was a tweed deluxe, I beleive. I can get darn close to those tones (Herb Ellis in particular, bright and round and woody) with my Kay and a 70's princeton.
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Some people say that in the 50's Ampeg was king on the East coast and Fender on the West coast. That suggests the "RVG amp" could have been an Ampeg as well in those days. I know for sure that his studio kept an Ampeg Gemini in the late 60's, but that's a different era and a different sound.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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before you drive yourself nuts I will throw this out there.
Listen to the drums on those albums. That will give you an idea of how much of that warm tone comes from tube mixing consoles and analog tape.
You have a good guitar, the right strings, and a decent amp.
Just a thought
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Gibson amps...man i want one bad. pretty much everyone with the leather covering i have played has been a great amp. they are getting more popular and i think they are headed the way of a fender BF in price.
the GA50T is my dream jazz amp. those already go fro around 2K though. and they are not that loud at 25 watts. if you played with a loud drummer, it might be a challenge to keep it clean. but just a tiny bit of overdrive is my favorite sound.
funny that those records were a tweed deluxe. that amp is forever etched in my mind as "Cortez the Killer"...i would love to have one. i played a Tweed Bassman the other day that killed! 8K! but if i had the money, i would have thrown down in a second. it would be plenty loud for any gig.
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No drums on the Julie London sessions. Originally Posted by SamBooka
Good point about the boards etc. Definitely the rooms/studios played an important part, too.
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I you want to stick to Fender's amp, I suggest you to give a try to a vintage SF Princeton reverb. 12W but very loud an lush sound. Originally Posted by cyberprimate
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Yes, I'm sure it had a massive impact on the sound. All the tubes involved in the console room slowed down the transient attacks and made guitar amps sound smoother. Originally Posted by SamBooka
I guess I just need to find a simpler tube amp. By only using one speaker, no tremolo, no reverb and low volume, i'm just underusing my Twin. And overusing my back and arms! I've never really enquired about the 50's fender tweed amps like the 5E3 design because i've always identified them with blues rock so far.Last edited by cyberprimate; 02-09-2011 at 07:40 PM.
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As for Gibson amps: They certainly aren't as popular as other brands. Remember when "Lab series" amps came out?
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One of the problems with blackface Fender circuits is the large midrange scoop in the EQ. I've always preferred tweed circuits. They have a small amount of "grit" in them that warms things up.
I have a Victoria Regal II with a 15" speaker in it that uses any octal power tube in pairs or singles with no adjustments. It's a bit heavy at 49 lbs, but when the power tubes are matched to the gig, the sound is heavenly ad very 50s. That said, I don't use humbuckers either and neither did those 50s guys.
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Apparently some of these amps have the reputation of being very smooth and mellow, like Jim Hall's GA-50 or smaller models like GA-20. I guess these 2 amps don't attract rock players. Originally Posted by caravan
Last edited by cyberprimate; 02-09-2011 at 08:57 PM.
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"Twin Reverb Settings"
Bass : for enough thick, as well as littel, 1 (Silver Face Rola) ～ 3 (Black Face Eminence)
Mid : 6 ～ 8 (not too much for sensitivety)
Treble : 1 ～ 2 a touch for colouring
Master (if has a) : Max
"Guitar Settings"
Volume : 4 ～ 8
Tone : 10
Pickups : select for the songs, Neck and Mix and Bridge
Amp Locations : behind the neck side, tilt back
Notice ; early version of the '65 Rissue's Eminence is very tight and very wide range, needs the other unit for you.
Almost of the amps tone is speakers tone.
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I'm already using that setup pretty much. Mid at 6. Guitar vol at 8.
On Eminence speakers.Last edited by cyberprimate; 02-09-2011 at 10:09 PM.
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OK !!! Originally Posted by cyberprimate
This version is most tight and wide range like hi-fi and good for any genre.
The best of push tone in the twin's histoty and good for Jazz, also I have.
I did testing each amp blocks and each speakers tones by cross wiring.
Amps; '66 Viblrolux Reverb(Jensen C10NS) (may be your tones)
and etc etc.
Needs the good speaker unit for you.
Please ask to Weber Speakers.Last edited by kawa; 02-09-2011 at 10:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
Good observations here. The Black Face Fender series amps took the variable feedback circuit (AKA Presence control, the tweed Fenders didn't have any or much feedback circuit for effecting timbre) used in the blonde Tolex and "brownface" amps and "fixed" it at a predetermined setting, which took out midrange to try and get a perceived increase in treble and bass for a more "Hi-Fi" sound.
I think a 5E3 tweed Deluxe (by Victoria, or others) is a good amp for chasing vintage jazz guitar sounds IF you're after a honking horn-like quality (similiar to Charlie Christian, Barney Kessel, etc). Both Kessel and Christian backed their Charlie Christian style pickups away from the strings to get a more "stringy" sound.
However a tweed Deluxe with a humbucker doesn't give me anything. A real nothing tone.
The "tweedier" an amp sounds (say, my Tech21 TM30), the better single coils seem to work for that fifties sound, to my ears.Last edited by backliner; 02-09-2011 at 10:58 PM.
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Cool post, backliner. Originally Posted by backliner
Both Christian and Kessel used "Charlie Christian" pickups. I'm not using them neither Fender pickups but P90s (which are supposed to be stringed very close). Will they give me a "nothing tone" like humbuckers with 5E3 type amps?
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I saw Jim Hall a few years back at the Montreal Jazz Festival. He was using a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and he sounded like.......Jim Hall!!
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P-90 is good with tweed Deluxe type amps I think. Single coils are clearer to my ears because matched coils in humbuckers trim off highs and get muddy quickly if you take any tone off with a tone pot. Originally Posted by cyberprimate
The Charlie Christian pickup preceded the P-90, but were probably pretty expensive to make. The P-90's may have lost something that the Charlie Christian pickups had, but still have a fat raw quality to them, with maybe a bit more nasal sound (which a tone pot can take out if undesired).
Tweed Deluxe amps were designed to make Leo Fender's plank guitars sound good with their single coil pickups. A humbucker output can easily squash all the chime out of the sound, but of course also hits the front end harder and that sends a hot signal to compress the power amp section. The power supply can barely keep up, so the notes "bloom" after initial compression, which is what blues guys are after.
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Ampegs were indeed the choice of east coast and especially NY & NJ jazz players in the 50's. And the models top dogs were using were quite different animals from, say, Fenders. The reason is simply the fact that Leo designed his amps to go with his solid body guitars, whereas Everett Hull's customers played big hollowbodies. An amp designed for solid bodies is more sensitive to feed back with hollowbodies than one with more hifi-like eq curve ( flat ). That's why Johnny Smith asked Hull to design an amp with a flat frequency eq curve, and later in the 60's he requested the same from Emrad. Of course, the 50's Ampegs are rare, especially the models jazz guys were using; Guitaramp, Fountain Of Sound, Duette, etc. The Ampegs that used more Fenderlike designs, such as Mercury, M15, Dolphin, etc are great too, more buttery midrange than Fenders, still rare but occasionaly available on fleabay ( I've bought 3 within 10 years ). I currently have an oddity Ampeg, a -58 Comboamp and the tone with a DeArmond Rhythm Chief is just dreamy; fat but not sloppy bass, that buttery midrange and clear high end.
Not sure what the deal with Ampeg co is now, whether they still make guitaramps or not, ( they seem to emphasize on bass amps )but this here will probably be a good jazz players option for a Tweed Deluxe:
Ampeg: Diamond Blue Series - J-20
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I heard these new Ampeg guitar amps like J-20 are a different design, with a more Vox kind of sound than old Ampeg.
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If you are interested, I have a Victoria tweed deluxe 20-112 for sale on consignment at J Hale Music in Wisconsin. It's not listed on his eBay store, but you can contact him about it - great guy to deal with. Here's the link to his store: http://www.jhalemusic.com/
Anyway, it's a hand-made clone of a 50's Fender tweed deluxe. No reverb. I upgraded the speaker to a Celestion Alnico Blue. Jeff Hale sold it on eBay but the buyer returned it, complaining it made too much noise. Jeff Hale says it had a bad tube, which he has replaced. It is now for sale in his store but has not yet been put back up on eBay.
I have learned that no matter how great is the reputation of equipment, it still might or might not be exactly what you are looking for. Ideally you should play your own guitar through any amp before buying it, especially when the amp is expensive. If that is impossible for you, Jeff does (obviously) have a workable return policy.
A new one is about US$1,800. Mine is a lot less.
Check out some sound clips: Victoria Amps Model 20112 | 20-112 Tweed Deluxe | Soundpure.comLast edited by joe b; 02-10-2011 at 06:33 PM.
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Yes, most certainly they are different, just read people referring them to Tweed Deluxes in reviews. The Blue Diamond line Ampegs from some years back might have been closer to the truth, but I don't really have experience of those. Originally Posted by cyberprimate
I heard these new Ampeg guitar amps like J-20 are a different design, with a more Vox kind of sound than old Ampeg.
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Yes. Not like an old '50's Ampeg, though they are styled that way. Originally Posted by cyberprimate
I heard these new Ampeg guitar amps like J-20 are a different design, with a more Vox kind of sound than old Ampeg.
Prone to cabinet rattles too. I had one that didn't rattle, but it was 2 X EL84 based, which with the small 1 X 12 cabinet gave it a primitive boxy sound.
The slightly larger Jett-II models were good Blues amps sometimes. I don't see many around any more. They -and the Crates that St Louis Music also was making- were pretty consumer oriented. Plastic tube sockets, etc.
Any Victoria 20-112T (5E3) tweed Deluxe would be far superior.
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